Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in A Jesus Manifesto

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Zach Navarro — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:02:56 -0000

i agreee

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Tokyo James — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:45:40 -0000

I might be the odd man out here (usually am) but I didn't read it as something that was ever to be taken apart from the Trinity in any way. I'm still not quite sure how that idea got thrown in the mix. Then again, I've read a good deal of you's fellas other stuff, so I dunno exactly how newbies would take it. I agree with Mark, I hope it will be taken as a starting point for deeper exploration in Christ, surely. Mainly because its never my wish for anyone to stop dead with a "theology" of Christ. Aren't we in a relationship with the Living, Loving God? I'd never just assume that I know everything about my wife and leave it at that (that is likely to get me killed). If I cannot know my wife perfectly and fully in every way and she is right next to me physically, how would I ever be so arrogant to assume that I could just stop exploring Christ's heart either? That is the relationship!

Anyway, I really liked your "key to a clean heart is dirty hands." Where can I find that and do you mind if I link to it? Google it, I guess...

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

James — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:18:51 -0000

I liked it. I think that got outweighed though by the lack of
cars.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Ted Troxell — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:01:38 -0000

Nicely done.

I was trying to impugn a culture where lack of credit constitutes a national crisis, but I think it bombed.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Tokyo James — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:04:51 -0000

didn't need loans, just a fish with a big enough mouth to hold the right amount of change.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

James — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:06:22 -0000

very good stuff. thanks for the points!

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Ted Troxell — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:26:34 -0000

The sound effects cracked me up.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:23:33 -0000

I just added this on the other site, which maybe I shouldn't have, but I couldn't help myself (and it's a bit funny):

I have no way to respond to the moderator privately, so...

I see you are intent on deleting anything more I say here (while leaving Frank's comment about me "imputing evil motives," which is untrue and judges my motives, and erasing all the evidence so no one else can tell if it's true or not). I wish you would take this manifesto more to heart and try to embody the living Jesus a little more yourself.

I'll do my best, too. Pfft, pfft, pfft. (That's me wiping the dust from my feet.)

p.s. I should add that I appreciate Frank's private conversation with me by e-mail. And I realize he is not responsible for these deletions.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:34:33 -0000

Now my second comment has been deleted (though I did get an e-mail from Frank and replied to him privately). The deleted comment, which explained why I didn't think my first comment was unfair or "imputing evil motives" was this:

Thanks for replying, Frank. I didn’t mean to imply that you presented an ethereal Jesus in your manifesto (or elsewhere), but only said that Christians often emphasize Jesus’ moral teachings, theology, etc. to help us avoid following an ethereal Jesus. And your manifesto makes a point of criticizing these ethical and theological efforts.

Thanks also for an explanation for the deletions. I did not think I was imputing “evil motives” to you, but only pointing out the impression you make with this site. In the manifesto itself you refer people to your books (including direct links to Amazon). You also conclude with pictures of your books and there are more links in the sidebar to take people to sellers of your books. You yourself also repeatedly refer people to your books in your comments here (as you do in your comment to me), instead of making that information available free of charge. So I don’t think it is unfair to say that you are promoting your books here.

And I never said that promoting your books was “evil.” I did, however, point out that Jesus always gave all his teachings, the “good news” of God, to people for free. And aren’t you preaching here that we should embody the living Jesus? Is it wrong to expect you to practice that as well?

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Jamie Arpin-Ricci — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:10:18 -0000

Oh, I know, I was just being facetious. However, I will say that, while theology does not require literacy, it can be an important gift to it. I don't think we have lost more than we have gained by its use.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:46:49 -0000

Good points, "Facebook User." And I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of Christians throughout history, being illiterate, have not become followers of Jesus through books but through encounters with living Christian witnesses.

The "Word," after all, is not a book but a living person. And the "manifesto" being discussed here emphasizes that Jesus is not a theology or ethic but a person, embodied (hopefully) in his followers. A good point. It also, however, serves to introduce and promote two books by popular Christian authors (which you can order now using their handy links to Amazon...).

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Facebook User — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:31:54 -0000

Well, technically the New Testament existed initially and primarily as oral history and testimony, and was only later put to paper in as letters and the gospels. And oral transmission of the bible is one of the most effective methods of evangelism and missions/leadership training - the Southern Baptist Convention has done a ton of work/research into that, and they've come up with some really good material and studies.

In addition, theologians such as Kwame Bediako have detailed what a 'bottom-up' theology looks like - Bediako focuses on West/Central Africa, but there are parallels to other locales. In these instances, academia finds itself more in a role of theological historians, racing to catch up with the insights and movements on the ground amongst the people.

Theology is something that can flourish in all social strata, and does not require literacy to be efficacious.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:04:56 -0000

p.s. Now just the last part of my comment has been deleted (with an explanation). And Frank Viola has replied, which I appreciate and respect. The continuing conversation can be read on their site.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

casey — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 21:53:12 -0000

Of course farmers read theology. Lisa's point is that the ones she knows don't read the kind of theology found on most emergent blogs and they are not particularly interested in heady theological debates.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:04:02 -0000

I posted this reply (following up Mark's comments) on the "other" Jesus Manifesto blog:

[This comment disappeared on their site soon after I posted it yesterday, but then reappeared just now. I'm not sure why. I did write to Len about it and he was open and responsive, though he thought it was unfair to assume they were trying to promote their books.]

I think what Mark was pointing to is that you emphasize the person of Jesus, yet do not describe him (or the nature of his kingdom), maybe even intentionally. And you seem to strongly criticize the emphasis of other Christians on ethics, theologies, and teachings drawn from Jesus (even the emphasis on "the kingdom of God," which Jesus focused on himself), yet these are the ways Christians have tried to describe the nature of Jesus and his body, to help us avoid following an ethereal "person of Jesus" that we made up to suit ourselves.

You say, "The Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee is the same person who indwells the church today." I agree, if by "church" you mean the authentic, committed followers of Jesus, whose lives look like his. But much that we see in "the church" does not look like Jesus at all, while they all (or at least most) claim to be following Jesus. Their "Jesus" is just a word, without real content (much less a real person). And this abstract "person of Jesus" is easily adapted to their own desires or social pressures, including the pressures of the powers of this world. Hence the description "anemic Christianity."

I also think you should be more open to challenge and criticism, since you are posting this publicly, and the Jesus you write about is not yours (not even "your portion" is yours) but the one living Jesus of us all, his body. You challenge Mark to write his own statement ("instead of criticizing ours" seems to be the implication). But from your statement here it would seem that what we need is not more statements but living people embodying the living Jesus. And Jesus (who never wrote his own "manifesto") was quite an outspoken critic of his fellow Jews, especially those considered to be the religious leaders and teachers of the people.

Like, perhaps, the popular Christian authors of our day. You write "Christians don't follow a book." But wandering through a Christian bookstore might lead us to quite a different conclusion. And this "manifesto" (and the work of your publicist to spread the word about it) also seems to be an attempt to promote your books.

The living Jesus perhaps wonders why you are charging people for the "good news" that he always gave away for free.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Phil — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:37:06 -0000

Haha. Ok, ok. And you're no doubt right; they're both big guys and perfectly capable of dealing with a little criticism. Julie, being a formidable person herself, can no doubt deal with the feedback as well.

I guess I took issue with what seemed to be hyperbole flirting with ad hominem attack. I think when we (Christians) start lobbing loaded adjectives at each other constructive conversation and thoughtful critique tends to go out the window pretty quickly.

Anyway, it's your blog and I take the implicit correction. Thanks for the conversation here.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

paul munn — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:58:12 -0000

Do you think you are helping the situation with vague and unsubstantiated accusations, Dana?

And it's probably worth pointing out that Jesus' arguments with the Pharisees were "Jew against Jew," so I don't think it should be surprising if his followers challenge and argue with other Christians.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

markvans — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:45:18 -0000

Dana, perhaps you could say who you're addressing...because it isn't very charitable to say that everyone is acting like pharisees. I find your judgmental attitude very discouraging. I'm not even sure what you're upset about.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Dana Sherrill — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:56:32 -0000

You know, I'm just a simple minded girl from Kansas, so don't take what I say too seriously...but it seems to me that Jesus spent alot of time pointing quite a bit of what he said to the pharsees...(pardon my simple-minded spelling) I'll bet he spoke more to the hard-hearted pharasees than he ever spoke to the romans...Ya'all are sounding a bit like some hard hearted pharasees...I find our own pride to be much more damaging, much more dangerous than the opinions stated in A manifesto...If your feathers are so ruffled maybe the Holy Spirit (who gives us the words to pray...nothing is ever "new" in this world) might be trying to get you to set aside your pride...Ya'all are acting like the older son who is trying to play "god" by pointing out how "good" he has been while his snotty younger brother is the one who has really blown it...you know the prodigal one...Maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you "come in to the party...you've had me with you the whole time..." Set down your pride, open your minds and hearts and stop pitting Christian against Christian...

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

VITL — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:30:56 -0000

That's 1 John 1 & 2. : - )

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

VITL — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:29:22 -0000

First part - Ecclesiastes 1:14
Second part - John 14 & 15, 1 John 1:2

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

markvans — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:06:39 -0000

I think the "rude" she was talking about is what I alluded to at the beginning of my post here.

I don't read anything acrimonious about people's responses to Frank and Len...and if there is any negative feedback, I have no doubt whatsoever that they can handle it.

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Adam — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:12:28 -0000

Where is that comment?

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Steve Knight — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:56:48 -0000

Why not edit your "Jesus Manifesto," Len? Why does it have to be a static document? It's on the Internet, for Pete's sake. Wikify it! Or not. Your call ;-)

Re: A Jesus Manifesto

Mike Morrell — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:44:54 -0000

I just found another Jesus Manifesto! http://www.mission.org/jesu... These suckers are everywhere... : )