Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

jeremy vh — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:15:19 -0000

I think the real key is starting with your neighbors. I'm reminded of the story Jesus told when he was faced with the very slick question, "who is my neighbor" in response to "love your neighbor in the same way that you love yourself." He told a story about a Samaritan—an outcast in Jewish society—who leaned over to help a Jew who was hurt on the road. Why? Because he was there, and the man needed help.

Mark, you are absolutely right, that the tendency is to pick up and "rush off to the brown parts of a city." And there's nothing wrong with that, but I would argue that we are called to simply treat everyone we meet with the kind of gentleness, mercy, and love that Jesus has shown us. And short of that, we should be willing to give them what we are willing to give ourselves. If we do that—and I'm not positive that we can in this world, but we should try for it with everything we've got—i really believe all the rest of this just falls away.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joel — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:35:13 -0000

Thanks for the reading material. I think that all the advantages that we may have by belonging to one racial or ethnic group or another (this changes depending on where in the world one finds themself) is a test from God. It is like a rope. We can use it to help others by throwing a line to those in need or we can use it to hang ourselves.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joseph — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:12:52 -0000

Interesting thoughts yall. I'd agree, the Christian Tradition has a very robust response historically and biblically to suffering, and how one encounters God in its midst. But as in the Black Church context of my heritage, it is always followed by a theology of Hope. As the old slave spiritual says, "Trouble don't last always." Suffering from a place of fear and not hope is a distortion of Christian theology. So when I think of the willfull or unconscious oppression that Mark referred to, I think of suffering (economically or otherwise) as taking place in the context of fear. How worse is that fear and how little the hope when you find out the brother or sister you have in Christ is somehow behind it! So when I hear us reflexively accepting or encouraging vulnerable people to just be content with their position, I think it lets us as Christians alittle off the hook as we then neglect to ask how we contribute to their circumstance for better or worse.

I also want to express a semantic preference for contentment "in" suffering rather than "with" it. To add my own experience to the mix, of all people I know with little or no economic means, in my family, the US, and globally, few would describe themselves as content with having so little. They are not content with being unable to properly feed and nourish their households. They worry, and necessarily so, about their future or that of their children if they have them. The ability to have joy in such dire straits is only I think part of the resiliency of the human spirit as a gift given of the Holy Spirit. Also, so many people in poverty have a stoic quality to them that masks pains, worries and concerns that they are often relunctant to share with outsiders. All this being said, I think its difficult to make a direct correlation between poverty and contentment or to pinpoint what human beings should feel about their particular distress. What is worth seriously considering, I believe, is how I am either helping, neglecting or hurting their situation as an ambassador of Christ.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Tanden — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:58:49 -0000

Over here at bethel some of the required reading that we have for students is a paper called "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh. Leon Rodrigues the Chief Diversity Officer/ and a person who lived through and fought against apartheid in South Africa, highly recommends reading this paper, so i thought i would pass it along. Here is where you can find it: http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu...

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joel — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:24:24 -0000

I don't want to impy that God "desires" for us to suffer. Simply that He places us in positions where we can do the work that He desires us to do in a fallen world where suffering is an inevitable reality. All people suffer. Suffering doesn't care if you are rich, poor, or something in between. In fact, much of the suffering people experience is in their desire for "things" that they don't have. Most of the time, those "things" are best classified as "wants" rather than "needs". In North America, we really don't have many people who are truly poor, that is, people who aren't getting their needs met (food, shelter, clothing). In our society, there are enough help and resources available out there. Sometimes our pride stops us from getting the help we need. Our pride isn't God's fault. Which brings us back to my point about being content with the position we find ourselves in. I know families who survive on $600/ month or less. They are some of the happiest people I know because they are content with their position. That is not to say that they don't desire to be in a better position someday. They just don't let that desire run their lives and cause them to imagine that they suffer more than they really do. They live lives that are much richer than most of us do because they have a great family life and live in the moment.

Maria and Mark also make good points.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

markvans — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:23:54 -0000

There is a tension here, I think. I know that the vast majority of Christians...especially before modern times, had a robust theology of suffering. Maybe not as a thing caused by God, but at least as a valuable and sometimes necessary place for meeting God.

After all...James instructs us to consider trials a joy. And when the apostles were persecuted, they considered it an honor. This at least opens the door for a way of understanding suffering as potentially useful for making us holy and Christlike.

Jesus' sufferings accomplished something in service to God...and in that place we see God demonstrated in a powerfully horrific way. And later, Paul tells us that his own sufferings complete the work of Christ.

I think my problem happens when a theology of suffering is used to justify oppression...or at least tolerate oppression...among Christians.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Maria Kirby — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:16:50 -0000

"If God desires people to suffer and die, then what does that say about who God is?"

This question implies that suffering and dying are things that might not be consistent with God's character. I don't see anything wrong or evil with either one. I see God leading by example. Pain is not any less holy than happiness. There are times when reading the Bible when I get the opposite impression. That having pain, contemplating death, living with the dying, etc. is the means by which we become holy. I see God as desiring us to become holy. I don't associate this desire with the same kind of psychotic pleasure that some humans get from seeing others in pain. God the Father doesn't have human emotions, and God the Son was the most compassionate person there ever was. Compassionate persons don't get pleasure from other's pain. Good parents desire their children to grow up well. They understand that sometimes their children need to suffer in order to grow up properly. It may even be necessary for the parent to orchestrate such an environment. The parent knows that if the child learns an important lesson with a little bit of pain now, it can save the child having to learn the lesson later with a lot more pain later. And while any parent would like to protect their children from pain, humans seem to learn a lot quicker when there is some pain involved.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Maria Kirby — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:47:18 -0000

Thanks, Joseph.

WRT cultural diversity, the suggestions that I proposed while they might "appeal" to other cultures, I think the the biggest reason to strive for diversity isn't as much for the out reach possibilities as it is our own enrichment. (Although if they work that way, great!) We can't force relationships with other cultures, but we can prepare ourselves for those relationships by making use and exposing our selves to elements of other cultures that are easily accessible. If we start the enrichment process before developing relationships with other cultures, we have the chance to take a few of our own cultural blinders off first and rub off a few of our own cultural rough edges and insensitivities before we become blockheads in a cross-cultural relationship. We might have lost enough of our assumptions to actually have ears to hear another person's story without lots of cultural baggage that may or may not apply.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Tanden — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:29:40 -0000

Joel,

on your final point, i would respectfully encourage you to put some serious thought and meditation into the idea that God has willed / planned some to be poor/ have a position of suffering that leads to death. Viewing God as the creator of suffering and pain is a very bitter pill for me, and I don't see that in the life of Jesus.

I guess I am justing asking you to sit with the question "If God desires people to suffer and die, then what does that say about who God is?"

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joseph — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:08:25 -0000

Maria,

I like where your comments are going. The privileges we have can serve as gifts if we allow them to do so. The biblical story of Ester is a good example of this as well as Wilberforce. Privilege can also be a curse as well as a gift if it is a zero sum game in which someone else has to needlessly suffer or have their opportunities limited for the sake of your gain or inheritance. The Israelite prophets are continually speaking to this, and its I believe the reason behind Mark's original post.

As a Christian, I'm always weary of the ways in which political powers institute reconciliation in broken societies, often the measures regress into a series of "paybacks" I think Christians involved in development work with poor throughout the globe have to say on the one hand, we can't simply return to the pre-industrial past, but on the other hand, we can't do things as they would be done in Europe or the US. You can't xerox development or reconciliation, rather it has to be a contextual process that gives the people you work with dignity, and value in their own culture.

As for cultural diversity in the Western Church, having engaged in some of that ministry I think the first step before offering things which "appeal" to different cultural groups is to learn about their stories and ask them about their needs and desires. There is so much assumption that goes on about how to engage with or reconcile with different cultural groups. It's often based on anecdotal information from the few people we know, and then projected over the entire group. Listening, I believe is the first prescription for dealing with the Mountain of Bones.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

mountainguy — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:00:24 -0000

I like this post, mainly the last paragraph. When you want others to live "something", you should live this "something". And having a more open mind (what doesn't mean "heresy") is an important way to share our faith.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Maria Kirby — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:23:19 -0000

I wanted to point out that William Wilburforce could not have eliminated slave trade without his privilege position, which I'm sure had its fair share of bones.

There have been land reallocation policies in Africa, where the land was taken away from the white "colonists" and given back to the native tribes, which actually caused more suffering for the Africans than if there had been no "justice". The persons who received the land did not know how to make it productive which resulted in famine and economic collapse. We cannot support our current population on the agricultural practices of a pre-European era.

It seems to me that the vast majority of "ministry" to the poor gives the gospel of capitalism, or is an avenue where those who have can show how much more they have than those who have not. St Francis is a personal hero to me. He brought the message of joy in Jesus to the poor because he was poor. There wasn't any double message like "you can be happy in Jesus if you give your heart to him AND GET A JOB". I think capitalism is the way the economy works, but its not the same thing as the gospel message.

If you want your church to be culturally diverse, then you have to be pro-active about it. You have to play culturally diverse music, invite culturally diverse speakers, have culturally diverse art, be willing to periodically change the format of the service, serve culturally diverse food at church functions. Even doing all those things won't make you culturally diverse, but it opens the doors to seeing and experiencing life in a different way. It makes for a welcoming environment for those who are "different" to fit in. We all ache to belong. It is easier to belong when are differences are celebrated.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Dave — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:40:56 -0000

Doing the 'right thing' is the key. People are all "Down With Wal-Mart", but the real hope for change is in the board of directors hearts, not laws. Instead of picketing, we should pray for them and continue to live Christ before them.

Those who have need a change of heart. Period. You can't force them to change. Same with those who are 'down and out'.

I have a friend from Mexico who is a pastor of a Church in Washington state. He taught me that spiritual well being has nothing to do with money, status, jobs...I learned to be happy (joyous even) while working in a saw mill for 'the man'. It was dirty, dangerous work with no benefits in a poor, depressed town filled with a few rich people who ran the politics of the community and were set on making sure that nobody prospered except them. If somebody wanted to open a business, they'd make it impossible to do it. If it was a good idea, they would steal it. They all went to the same church!

But Raul, who also worked at the saw mill, and an illegal immigrant to boot, invited me into his home, prayed for me when I had pneumonia and couldn't afford to go to the hospital (I was healed, by the way)...He told me in Mexico you either had faith, or people died.

I know poverty. I know oppression. I've lived on the wrong side of the tracks. I also know that pulling yourself up by your boot straps isn't the answer as well. The answer is Christ: Living Him, Breathing Him. I'm probably too simplistic for this discussion because I see Jesus as the Answer for everything.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Dave — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:21:22 -0000

I a very real way, that happen to me. My family comes from Scotland where back in the late 1700's, the nobility gathered up thousands, put them on ships and scattered them all over the world. It was called the "Clearances". People where grabbed off the streets and forced onto ships with the clothes they had on their backs. Families torn apart, their home burnt, their possessions taken. On the other side on the family, the Irish. Much of the same type of treatment, and discriminated against when the came here to the states. They where called "The niggers of the north".

I don't feel defensive. My thoughts on this are long thought out. The acts of repentance required are of the class warfare variety, but of individuals and Christian communities making commitments to be Christlike.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

SaraHarding — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:02:34 -0000

I totally agree, Joel. I think the more we make an issue of racial/ethnic divisions, the worse the tensions between them become. I wanted to comment on that great satire about the church "Not in Virginia", too, which is along the same lines. I live in South Carolina (though I grew up in the North), a state that is still recovering in some areas from the awful crimes of the War of Northern Aggression. Slavery was a terrible evil, but the war was more about expanding the empire of America than anything else, and most of the victims here were not slave owners, but poor farmers. There are still old families who carry a lot of anger. But most of the people have moved on, and don't look at me funnily for having a Yankee accent. And in everyday public life, I see blacks and whites interacting and intermingling as if there were no differences between them. I mentioned that I was of both white and Native American lineage. I am also the direct product of a union between a northern and southern family. Perhaps, though, I am more a product of an identity and faith where race and ethnicity are rendered irrelevant, and the past is forgiven and forgotten in a love that covers over a multitude of wrongs.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joel — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:47:21 -0000

I hesitated to post anything here for a while because this is a sensitive subject. But... here it goes.

Just a little background about myself first so you all can see the position I am coming from. I am white. But I did not grow up with everything just handed to me. I grew up eating govt. cheese and wearing 2nd hand clothing because we couldn't afford better. I never was able to attend any college to get a degree. Even community college was out of my reach. I have also spent a number of years living in a foreign country where whites (all foreigners really) were discriminated against. It was perfectly legal there to discriminate against foreigners.

Now, having said that, I want to leave the issue of race behind us. If we are christians, we should look upon each other in a Christ-like way. That means that we are simply brothers and sisters, regardless of the color of our skin. To accept anything less is wrong. I read a lot of talk in the posts here about fault and guilt. We have to remember that we all have been forgiven because Christ took our punishment. Once again, to accept anything less is wrong.

Now, we need to talk a bit about responsibility. We all have a responsibility to help each other and ease each others burdens. This is a two way street. Those who have much have a responsibility to help those who have little. But on the same token, a person who has little may also be able to ease the burdens of one who has much. We all have gifts that we are expected to use to help each other out in times of need, regardless of the position that society has put us in.

One final point... We need to be content with our position, regardless of what that position is. This may seem to be a bitter pill for some, but it is the truth. Whatever our position, be that one of prosperity or one of poverty, God has put us there for a reason. We should be content to be where God wants us to be. God has put each one of us in the place where He knows we can do the most good. To reject the position He has put us in is to reject His plan for our lives. Some who are rich will become poor. Some who are poor will become rich. God's plan for us is ever changing. We just have to remember that God blesses us all and He blesses with more than simply material and worldly possesions. Many of His greatest gifts to us have no monetary value.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Tanden — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:28:29 -0000

I really don't know what the MLK quote has to do with what you are saying.

I live in a nieghborhood where the average family of 3 lives on $13,000 or less a year. so these issues are not just some issue to me but they are peronal and real. It is not about us wanting a free ride but us wanting those who have to do the right thing.

And to be honest with you, as you continue to tell us to just work harder to just move on, we will move on, we will grow, we will continue to love each other and try to make ends meet. the question for those who have is where they are going to grow and start doing the right thing.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

markvans — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:48:09 -0000

There is certainly a whole lot of truth in what you say, Dave. But it doesn't contain all the truth. I'd really like to hear how you reconcile what you are saying (which is true as far as it goes) with the six things markvans shared above.

To be honest, I think what you are saying comes off as a bit caloused.

Let me make an analogy. Let me say my grandfather killed your grandparents and then took over your farm, forcing your father and his family to make it on their own.

The farm passes to my father, and then to me. And let's assume that the farm is worth millions. Do you or your family have any claim? If so, when do we draw the line that says that descendants have no claim on any of that wealth?

Let us take it a step further. Let us say that you go to church with me. I am the farm owner. And let us say that because of the wrong done to your grandfather, your father's weakness and sin grabbed a hold of him and he became an alcoholic. And let us say that that resulted in a shitty upbringing for you to the extent that you had the deck stacked against you?

What are the obligations I have to you? Which are based upon the wrongs of the past? Which are based upon my kinship to you now as a fellow Christian in the present? Which are based upon common decency?

My hope is that this analogy will help to get some clarity on the issue. Maybe not much, but hopefully some.

Is there a place for the Bill Cosby-esque message of: "Don't stay a victim; take a hold of the situation and make it better for yourself?" Yes. There is. But that message isn't the whole story. And, I'm not trying to pick on you, but it doesn't mean a lot coming from you. Your statements tend towards justifying your views and defending yourself. Not once have you seemed to recognize anything worthwhile in anything else anyone has said in this whole conversation. That is, by definition, "knee-jerk." There is wisdom in what you say, but it isn't the full wisdom. One can realize taht there is more at play than a person's character. The Bible is chock-filled with all sorts of stories where the descendants pay for the sins of the ancestor. Nations are wiped out. Sin comes to fruit. Debts are collected.

Where is the balance between personal responsibility and a recognition that we all enter into the world with baggage that we did not choose for ourselves?

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Dave — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:42:14 -0000

Mark,
I totally agree with the statements made here, and don't endorse a 'I got mine, now you get your's' attitude. I think the the Church has paid a lot of lip service to the idea of justice. There has been a lot of misguided attempts at 'reconciliation. Most of it has been to appease peoples guilt for the prosperity they have horded. The 'system' isn't set up to recognize concepts such as jubilee, and I don't believe that we as Christians are to be rooted to the system. We have a responsibility to live as Christ, and that applies to the prosperous and the poor. While hoarding wealth and privilege is wrong, living in bitterness, jealousy, and resentment is as well. So to the 'rich' I say 'spread the wealth': to the poor I say don't demand it.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Dave — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:21:21 -0000

I happen to have friends 'of color'. One is a talented musician who has quit going to church because the black churches tell him he is a victim, and the white churches he's gone to bend over to constantly fawn over him: Repenting for the past, talking about 'diversity' now that they had their token black person. He wants to be treated like a Christian, like a man, not a poor victimized black.

To quote MLK: The ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in moments of comfort and convenience, but where they stand in times of challenge and controversy.

So, do you make the stand on what has been done wrong, or do you 'man up'? Do you let life pass you by, or fall to show up, because your waiting for someone to come along and...what, give you a free ride? Or do you forgive and move on? If I waited for the people who have done me wrong to come around and 'repent', I'd have never grown as a Christian.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

toddh — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:23:36 -0000

I think small steps are good. Sometimes that's all a person can do is take small steps. And the process is going to look different for everyone depending on their own unique situation. I guess the point is to be looking for what the next step might be for you, and trying to connect with others who are on the same journey.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Joseph — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:43:14 -0000

I'd agree with alot of that assessment Mark. Race as a category is a problem because of the limitations it places on human identity. But also the racialized past is not divorced from the present and there is no blank slate. Put another way, "inheritance" is a normal part of life. If we can inherit a family heirloom or family business, if we can inherit genes which give us green eyes or make us prone to cancer, if we can inherit the legacy of the Saints, or without ever striving for it the Grace of Salvation, then it seems to me that we can also inherit the consequences of past sin. The tragedy of various forms of oppression is that they have been sanctioned and committed by the Church.

I regard it as part of my "kinship in Christ" to be part of righting the wrongs. I regard it as my joyful vocation in Christ to be about redeeming the past, like the rest of creation. If we want to be judged on our own merits and not follow in the mistakes of our forebears we must remember the past. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. I've learned during my brief time in ministry that much trust is gained in the willingness to grieve with others for the wrongs of the past, whether we were the source of the pain or not. Only then can we trust one another to walk into the future, the inheritance that Christ has given us.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Tanden — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 02:32:51 -0000

I think it is interesting that you are more angry with the ones who have been wronged then you are with the ones that did the wrong.

I had 5 people of color read your blog and they think that you need to be welcomed into a conversation with a person of color.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

markvans — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:44:24 -0000

Hey Dave. I'll agree. The concept of "race" is racist. But the term was originally created as a means of keeping certain folks down, not in trying to topple the "man."

Let's put the language of race aside and talk generally here. We live in such a world where the sins of the fathers is visited to the following generations. The past shapes the present. We shouldn't use the past as a tool in simply casting blame or trapping people in a cycle of hopelessness. But to act as though the past doesn't shape our present is not only unhelpful, it is profoundly unbiblical.

When we come to Christ, the dividing walls fall. And we, the followers of Christ, embrace one another as brothers and sisters. But any glance around the world shows us that while our kinship is secured, it doesn't really play itself out.

We live in a world divided by all sorts of walls. I agree that you and I as white dudes shouldn't be held liable for the acts of of some other white dudes in the past. But neither can I act as though we all, each human being in the world, enters the world with a clean slate. We are all born in certain places with certain cultures and certain struggles.

If we cut off the past from our understanding of why the world sucks so bad, then I have to look at Africa and its problems and the US with its success and assume that Africans are worse people than Americans. After all, we're born with a clean slate, right? I don't think so. And I don't think that you're saying that. But what you're saying comes close.

Leaving the realm of nations for a moment, and peering into the worldwide family we call the "church," I am left with a certain number of realities:

1) Some Christians are prosperous and esteemed.
2) Other Christians are suffering and treated poorly.
3) Most of the time, these Christians don't find themselves in a place of prosperity or suffering purely by their own merit (though that certainly can play a role).
4) Those in different situations tended to have inherited their situations, for the most part.. Sure, a low-income person in North America may have to work hard to become Middle class, but even a low-income person looks like a King to the average person in Madagascar or Sri Lanka or Peru. There really isn't too much mobility for the vast majority of people in the world...especially among the bottom 50%.
5) The New Testament TENDS to promote an economics of Jubilee...where the ones with much share with the ones with little.
6) The Bible TENDS to assume this economics of Jubilee regardless of the personal culpability of the ones with much, or the righteousness of the ones with little.

What we do with these realities makes all the difference. If the knee-jerk liberal response is to want to create a class war because of these six statements, the knee-jerk conservative response is to find ways to embrace the status quo. In Christ, we should move beyond both of these in order to seek ways that we can express our shared kinship in Christ. And we should also, to the watching world, invite all people into that kinship.

Re: A Mountain of Bones: Being White in USAmerica

Mike Cline — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:58:09 -0000

I'm not so sure time is as linear as we make it out to be. I mean, we certainly experience "today" as if there was no far off "yesterday," but that doesn't mean that the past doesn't circle around to effecting today. The "somebody" who screwed up hundreds of years ago is often someone I'm connected to on some level, even if it is only as part of the "great cloud of witness" like Hebrews talks about. I'm not so sure we can separate the sins of the present and the sins of the past so easily. But it's a hard topic Dave. And I appreciate your honesty