the Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in Angst-giving

Re: Angst-giving

deadrev — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:33:57 -0000

i love you sir.

Re: Angst-giving

hewhocutsdown — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:04:04 -0000

You're very welcome.

Re: Angst-giving

markvans — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:23:04 -0000

I'm familiar with the origins of "this land is your land." I quoted it in an attempt to be ironic. The words themselves have often been used in aid of empire. I link to the wikipedia article so that folks could dig deeper into the somewhat activistic undertones of the song.

Thanks for the Amos text...it beautifully illustrates the point I was trying to make.

Re: Angst-giving

hewhocutsdown — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:17:31 -0000

It's amazing, the food/hospitality traditions abroad. I lived in Kuwait, and hospitality was a HUGE priority for the Arabs there - God forbid you do not have enough food, so there was always too much.

The Filipinos I ate with would fill my plate again if it got to be half full.....the Indians would rent out hotel conference rooms and cater baby receptions for friends, family and casual acquaintances (far out of their budget).

It's a completely different mindset, and it comes with it's own benefits and concerns.

I guess my caveat would be that, regardless of one's prophetic distance, there is also a time and a place to celebrate. The ointment poured on Jesus' feet could have been sold and spent on the poor; but that's not always its best use.

Re: Angst-giving

hewhocutsdown — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:11:54 -0000

Two things on this....

First, the quote from Woody Guthrie's song has been taken hostage - both by you and culture at large. Read in full in it's original context, it argues against the unjust structures of society:

As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.
...
In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?

Secondly, the gist of your article is solid. A great case example from the scriptures is from Amos, where he argues against their prosperity which they (Israel) say is from God:

This is what the LORD says:
"For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}.
They sell the righteous for silver,
and the needy for a pair of sandals.

They trample on the heads of the poor
as upon the dust of the ground
and deny justice to the oppressed.
Father and son use the same girl
and so profane my holy name.

They lie down beside every altar
on garments taken in pledge.
In the house of their god
they drink wine taken as fines.
...
I also raised up prophets from among your sons
and Nazirites from among your young men.
Is this not true, people of Israel?"
declares the LORD.

"But you made the Nazirites drink wine
and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.
...
I will tear down the winter house
along with the summer house;
the houses adorned with ivory will be destroyed
and the mansions will be demolished,"
declares the LORD.
...
You trample on the poor
and force him to give you grain.
Therefore, though you have built stone mansions,
you will not live in them;
though you have planted lush vineyards,
you will not drink their wine.

Re: Angst-giving

Al1 — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:54:20 -0000

As a Canadian, it's probably easier to agree with you today (since our Thanksgiving was weeks ago). However, I need to admit that our countries treatment of its aboriginal peoples hasn't been much different than yours.
One more thing in a litany of violence perpetrated in the name of Christ, freedom of religion, manifest destiny, or whatever other 'nice' term you wish to use. Sigh.
As people who claim to follow Christ we have some unwanted skeletons in our closet. But we can individually choose to move forward. Doing what we can to help heal the past, and endeavoring to not repeat it.

Re: Angst-giving

Yedeed — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:56:51 -0000

Thanks for that.

I appreciate the articulation of many important points. One being the mind crushing injustices committed against Native Peoples and another highlighting that wealth is not always a sign of "blessedness", but rather the New Covenant offers a very different picture of what blessedness is.

Also, I found that the point you made of the Israelites remembering their redemption from Egypt and connecting it to other struggles of oppressed peoples to be very insightful and important. I think that attitude is rampant when dealing with these sort of issues. It's like what? Get over it?

The critique of "American Civil Religion" is an important one.

Re: Angst-giving

JanetLynn — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:51:32 -0000

Just one small addition to my (way to long) previous response. The Indian Thanksgiving feast made our Thanksgivings look pretty wimpy - I've never feasted like that before or after - and these people were truly the POOREST of the poor. Interesting stuff.

Re: Angst-giving

JanetLynn — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:47:58 -0000

Hmmm, not sure I've "digested" this enough for a truly thoughtful response - and I DO want to hear what you are saying - especially in this gluttonous, individualistic, consumer and self righteous/self centered/great white hope culture . . . . And, your writing always deserves a thoughtful response. Yet, my "gut" response is: maybe not?

I confess my experience is skewed. I am a 2nd generation US citizen, the direct result of some folks in the US sending a bag of beans to a small village wherein my Grandparents were attempting to survive having lost their first born to starvation and praying for food enough for their own survival as well as the survival of my Aunt - their second born. (They had survived thus far on foraging for root plants and eating rats.) They lived. They emigrated to Canada and then the US as refugees. I wouldn't say they "prospered" since in their previous country my Grandfather was a highly educated publisher and in his new country he rented a small farm (he was a lousy farmer). Yet they were always grateful in a significant way for God providing for their physical needs . . . and Thanksgiving ended up being one of their favorite celebrations and a most significant expression of their thanks to God.

Then, about 10 years ago when I was in India around the Harvest time, I was deeply moved by the "Thanksgiving" tradition in that culture.

I'll give you that we have a sordid past in the strictest sense of US History - but that bag of beans came from the US. That is the US story as well. I guess I've never really gotten into the "myth" of the pilgrims . . . but my story makes me deeply grateful not only for food to eat but for my country - of which I am a fierce critic. Were I living in the country of my heritage - I would not have that option and I would - as my grandparents did - be standing in bread lines in 2008. I like to think of myself as a "progressive" thinker - after reading your missive I must re-evaluate my line of thinking.

On Thursday I'll be sharing a major feast with my small church community - and some friends we've met along our short journey. In planning we've had very interesting conversations about "traditional" foods - realizing that "traditions" are pretty limited and limiting. Praise be to God who redeems and transforms!

Thanks for your constant provocative thoughts - and for sharing them! PAX