Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

graham — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:58:51 -0000

'It takes nine months to be born of water, from conception to birth. it may take a lifetime to be born of the Spirit.'

What a wonderful line! Thanks, Ricky.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Fri, 02 May 2008 14:59:02 -0000

Thanks for dropping by Reverend Ricky. I love your response. It really frames this issue in a way that I think Jesus would frame it.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Rick Slone — Fri, 02 May 2008 14:50:06 -0000

Joseph of Antioch wrote:

"There is a zen priest at a well known meditation center here in northern california who has been connecting with Mark Scandrette & Reimagine in SF. (He was a Jesus freak in the 70's)."

I am he.

I have been in residential Zen training for fifteen years. I have been an ordained Zen Priest for ten.

I was involved in the Jesus movement in the 70"s for three years. I left it because I could no longer believe the particular version of "right doctrine" that was being espoused, i.e, that people who did not believe precisely the things that we believe about Christ will burn in hell eternally.

Not long a go, while driving back from visiting my best friend who 25 years ago founded a lay Franciscan community to serve the poor, a strong, irresistibly compelling feeling arose in me.

"I really miss hanging out with Jesus."

The really compelling part of this experience was the feeling of an actual relationship with an actual person that I actually had long ago, and that this person was in a sense trying to get back in touch with me.

So here I am-a Zen Priest follower of Jesus.

Recently, while speaking to a group of college students that my friend Mark Scandrette asked me to speak to, I found myself spontaneously saying, "I am his now. if ever I come to feel that being a Zen priest is incompatible with following Him, I would stop being a priest in a heartbeat."

I hadn't planned on saying that. It just popped out of my mouth. So far He seems OK with my remaining a Zen priest. in fact, my experience as a priest seems to have something positive to offer to my good friends in the emergent community here in the bay area.

Various issues have been raised in this thread, such as right doctrine, conversion, right practice, things like this.

Let me say a few things I feel about some of these.

In terms of right doctrine: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, saith the Lord." I believe it is the hight of human arrogance to presume that our tiny little intellects, with their tiny little concepts, can do justice to God's nature and Love. Therefore, how one actually lives is what matters, not the doctrinal affiliation one espouses. Where is the love?

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

But what is the will of the father? What is "orthopraxy?"

A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A founding pastor of a megachurch, complete with food court happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a high powered televangelist, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Hindu/Moslem/Budhist as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn in Jericho and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was engaged in "orthopraxy?"

As for conversion:

It takes nine months to be born of water, from conception to birth. it may take a lifetime to be born of the Spirit. I would like to say that "no longer do I live, but Christ lives in me," but I am not there yet. To reduce conversion to one cathartic peak experience trivializes discipleship. His love is infinite. Growing into his love is bottomless. Metanoia is a process, not an event.

I will leave it at this for now.

Reverend Ricky

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

2nathan2 — Thu, 01 May 2008 02:46:25 -0000

i'm a ninteen-year old, artisticly minded, emotionally based, modern day academic failure. consider audience.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

2nathan2 — Thu, 01 May 2008 02:43:07 -0000

The Ground We Share: Everyday Practice, Buddhist and Christian ---Robert Aitken and David Steindl-Rast
Total Liberation: Zen Spirituality and the Social Dimension---Ruben L. Habito
Lord Teach us to Pray: Christian Zen and the Inner Eye of Love---William Johnston
The Mirror Mind: Zen-Christian Dialogue---William Johnston
Zen and the Birds of Appetite---Thomas Merton
A Taste of Water: Christianity Through Taoist-Buddhist Eyes---Chwen Jiuan Lee and Thomas G. Hand
The Silence of God: The Answer of the Buddha---Raimundo Panikkar
Zen Spirit, Christian Spirit---Robert E. Kennedy
Living Buddha, Living Christ---Thich Nhat Hanh
Silence---Shusaku Endo
Awareness - The Perils and Opportunities of Reality---Anthony deMello
Thoughts on the East---Thomas Merton

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Joel — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:51:04 -0000

In my understanding, a Buddhist could also be a Christian, but as a Christian, we really don't have the same latitude to worship other gods. Buddhism doesn't reject other religions. As it was explained to me, Buddhism views other religions sort of like fish swimming in a stream. All the fish are swimming in the same direction and eventually they all get to the same destination. Buddhism views itself AS the stream that all the fish (other religions) are swimming in.

As an amusing side note to this, I once explained this to a KJV only bible pounding southern baptist and it scared the hell out of him.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:45:21 -0000

Well said!

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Cochs — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:34:14 -0000

"...but we know that lots of folks claim to follow Jesus and it seems apparent that they are either not really FOLLOWING Jesus or aren't following JESUS."

That's precisely the point of my comment. What a person says they are is irrelevant to me and frankly isn't really my business. "Ultimately every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." There is a great quote attributed to Francis of Assisi. "Whatever a man is in God's sight that's all he is anothing more." I can call myself whatever I want, but that doesn't make it true.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joet — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:31:32 -0000

Well, again you're using a pile of language I don't understand.

First, Church is the ultimate institution. Second, I recognise those who follow Christ as 'the church' not the small groups who meet in small buildings around town. And I don't believe that Church (sic) is the way that 'God has chosen to continually bring about the evangelical mission of Christ', because there is no obligation on God to use anyone or anybody. If the people remain silent, the rocks will cry out.

Too often Church of all denominations act as a kind of Borg (a la Star Trek), sucking in individuals and spitting out smiling, shiny people packaged with all the right theology, 'worshipping' in the right place at the right time with the right words - yet never ever actually getting to the point where Christianity becomes anything more than an exercise in Me Worship. I don't believe in that stuff.

As the daily liturgy reminds me, using Mark's words in the 'Jesus Manifesto' the sign of the 'spirit being upon us' is that we 'release the captives'. If it aint doing that, it aint church, period. We'd do better not even pretending that we have anything to do with the God-man Jesus of Nazareth.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joet — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:20:38 -0000

Yep, and the great sadness is that so few churches recognise what is happening. Just yesterday I was in a service full of liturgy, candles and costumes (which I was struggling hard to ignore) and the preacher's sermon was about how his mission was to get 'bums on seats' - as if getting people to engage with this form of Christianity, which is almost totally impenetrable for anyone outside of the clan, was tantamount to seeing them in glory.

But the kingdom is here, not something that happens to us when we die.

I'd say there is a good chance we'd have more Christians if we closed all the churches on Sundays.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:20:48 -0000

I guess I mean "mediated" in the sense that I recognize that I experience God through interdependence, mutual submission, and distribution of charisms (that is a fancy word for spiritual gifts), and confession. I don't believe I can have nearly as full of an experience of God on my own. In other words, mediated means that being "in Christ" is primarily a communal condition and secondarily an individual one. Or, at the very least, it would mean that the communal nature of our faith is indispensable and necessary.

It sucks that so few people have really gotten this stuff in the church. The phrase "every church I have ever attended has only really been interested in itself" is a sad one. It reveals the double crappiness of most churches: 1) that they are things to attend rather than communities that experience a way of life together, and that 2) they are usually focused on their own survival and neglecting what God is doing in the world.

I'd like to think that my community is working against these shortcomings. Oddly, few people seem really interested in the sort of awkward and challenging life required to actually live out the kingdom. Most people just want to come visit us on Sundays and then usually don't come back. Our Sunday gatherings aren't very entertaining and they aren't usually comfortable.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

xristocharis — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:08:22 -0000

Exactly. The Church is not so much institution--though institution is still a big part of it--as it is community. It's our communion, our koinonial relationship together, in and with one another, as we are together in Christ that constitutes our ecclesiastical identity--an identity, I might add, that we receive in our Baptism (I recognize that this is simply my high sacramentology showing through here)--and it is precisely as a community that is together that we exist in the world.

In a sense I see the Church not as an organism "within the world" but as God's apocalyptic interruption into the world whereby we see (through a glass dimly) the eschaton breaking into the world right here, right now. This is, simply put, the Kingdom of God.

If at the end of the world swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks than that is precisely the kind of eschatological world in which the Church now properly resides. We are a people, as St. Justin says, "who no longer know the art of war", we have already beaten our swords into plowshares, because even though we are in the world, we are in no way part of it.

It is in the Church where we find Christ, it is through the Church that God has chosen to continually bring about that evangelical mission of Christ to proclaim the nearness of the Kingdom is still being made known.

In this way, I truly believe, being a Christian is actually much more radically counter-cultural and revolutionary than anything plain ol' anarchism can offer. Anarchism can't offer us the the Divine Life of God imparted to us through the Spirit in our fellowship together as the Body-Church.

It really is Christarchy.

Iesous Christos Kurios.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:04:17 -0000

Yeah, that's true in a very literal sense, Casey (cochs), but we know that lots of folks claim to follow Jesus and it seems apparent that they are either not really FOLLOWING Jesus or aren't following JESUS.

I don't know enough about Buddhism and its various sects to say how much one can authentically pursue both paths. It SEEMS as though there is only so-much overlap. I suspect that one can be an authentic disciple of Jesus and still learn some good things from Buddha...but only to a certain extent.

Some have argued that since Buddhism predates Christianity, one can follow Jesus as a sort of "completed Buddhist." In other words, to start with Buddha, but end with Jesus. This an approach some missionaries take. In this view, every religion has a analogous relationship to Jesus that Judaism has. Christians believe that Jesus completes Judaism...that he is its fulfillment.

Some questions for thought (keep in mind that I'm raising these issues to foster meaningful conversation, not to make any particular claims about Buddhism or Christianity): If a Buddhist were to recognize that Jesus is greater than Buddha, and began to follow Jesus as someone who still revered Buddha, at what point would they cease to be a Buddhist and become a Christian? Or would they remain a Buddhist follower of Jesus? Or perhaps a Christian who respects Buddha? Does that Buddhist need to renounce Buddha in order to become a Christian. Could they, perhaps, give Buddha the same honor that the Apostle Paul or Peter or John would have given Moses or Abraham or David?

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

cochs — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:35:55 -0000

Your question is somewhat baffling. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, or at least is moving toward Christ; a Buddhist is someone who follows Buddha or at least heading in that direction. Whether or not Buddhists think of themselves as followers of Buddha is irrelevant to me. I think Merriam Websters has a very adequate definition of Buddhist.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joet — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:45:19 -0000

I'm not sure I'm really understanding, but aren't you implying that Jesus is a concept rather than a person? And more than that - aren't you saying it is a concept that lies buried deep within the person, waiting to be found?

Seems kinda... impersonal

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Casey Zachary — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:50:20 -0000

Those who are "in" are not justified by loving their neighbor," they are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Orthopraxy is the nice house people see above the ground, but orthodoxy is the foundation on which the house is built. Without a firm foundation, the house will not be strong, and without orthodoxy, the orthopraxy is not sustainable.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Orrin — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:36:24 -0000

Rabbi,
Though it seems that the intensity of your characterization is genuine it may be well served to introduce this idea to you.

The Star of David is a precious gem when seen/interpreted as a symbol of Christ-Consciousness.

When seen as the integration of masculine and feminine, of wisdom and compassion, at ascending and descending currents of ebb and flow, knowing and being, etc…, the Star of David is a key to unlock the mind of Christ. None of these dualistic concepts are complete without their counterpart; none of them are valid without each other but when combined the sum of the each part is transcended and included as one new and more complete, higher, wider, deeper Love.
The reason that I said in my second post that I didn’t want to go on in exquisite rational syllogistic senses about my practice, or the divine, is because there is nothing I can say that will do. Sure once a language is defined and shared between community members in reference to the divine we can have sets and subsets praxis and falibalistic sequences of interpreting the depths of ones own development in clarity but, that still is far from perfect in scale, sensitivity and capacity to express the Real outside of incredibly partial mention.

To be and to know divorced from one another is to not. Not, one or the other, both or neither. But, to be and to know in both agency and communion, (married, integrated not fused) is to be the safe harbor of action and inaction of surrender to uncertainty—to be a light, a beacon not just a mirror of truth, but a fountain of Love—a safe harbor of liberation within and without.
This Thinking and Feeling means to be Christ; this thinking and feeling you must use your head and your heart. To ignore one and favor the other is to pathologically move in narcissism, fear deception arrogance (ignorance) etc…

It is so, the words of God are written in the hearts and minds of all—it is before and beyond the relative and absolute. That which holds Big Mind and Big Heart.

Saul Williams
I can recite the grass on the hill and memorize the moon
I know the cloudforms of love by heart
and have brought tears to the eye of a storm
and my memory banks vaults of forests and amazon river banks
and i've screamed them into sunsets that echo in earthquakes
shadows have been my spotlight as I monologue the night and dialogue with days
soliloquies of wind and breeze applauded by sun rays
we put language in zoos to observe caged thought
and tossed peanuts and p-funk at intellect
and motherfuckers think these are metaphors
i speak what I see
all words and worlds are metaphors of me
my life was authored by the moon
footprints written in soil
the fountain pen of martian men
novelling human toil
and yes, the soil speaks highly of me
but earth seeds root me poet-tree
now, maybe i'm too serious
too little here to matter
though i'm riddled with the reason of the sun
i stand up comets with the audience of lungs
this body of laughter is it with me or at me?
hue more or less though gender's mute
and the punch line has this lifeline at it's root
i'm a star this life's the suburbs, I commute

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joet — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:09:36 -0000

I think it means to live the life of sacrifice. Something I am not doing - and in a very real sense am not really prepared to do.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joet — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:07:40 -0000

Hi Mark - I'd still appreciate someone explaining mediated/unmediated so I can be sure of what you're saying.

I know it isn't much of an answer, but I want to be in an environment of interdependance, mutual submission, probably distribution of the charisms (I don't know what that is) and shared confession. I don't get that in church, because every church I have ever attended has only really been interested in itself. These things are important because they enable me to do the things God wants me to do, I think they have little value in themselves.

Jesus says that the way to godliness is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and to love our neighbour as ourselves - and infact loving our neighbour is loving God. And whilst there is plenty of work God needs to do inside church, the problem is that we become so fixated with our own problems that we rarely get around to serving those around us in the sacrificial way we are called to.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

the_rabbi — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:58:06 -0000

i am a person becoming more and more emotionally aware. i feel the church can be a beautiful thing. i also feel completely unchallenged by church. (well, if i gave a #&$^ about big words it would probably be a challenge.) but unfortunately i can attend church and put in vulnerable parts of myself day after day week after week and nothing comes of it. nobody has the balls to really dig in to each other and find and appreciate those characteristics of God that i believe are in everyone. i'm not complaining, mostly because i feel like i'm on a right track for once so i'm not about to drop church and seclude myself just because i feel a little lonely. i just want to know why the left side of my head hurts after church and not the right side.

secondly, what is jesus' role my life? i feel i have deeply seen two sides of christianity through a handful of people and i desperately want to integrate them. on one side there are people completely devoted to emulating jesus. they feel in their sole the love and care that jesus shared. they want justice and hope and peace for the world! then there is an almost extinct group who have spent their entire lives in normalcy, unworried by any callings for justice and peace, but following in humble obedience to every word that jesus spoke. this group is very attuned to the "spiritual real." they are literally in contact in a way that they are informed of happenings that humans should not be able to know before hand. no, not crazy psychic. but yes, it'll give you goosebumps when they look you in the eye and know what you've done wrong or where they'll need to be to help in God's will. spooks the crap out of me.

i would love to be apart of both of these groups. yet i feel my vocabulary isn't quite big...no...extensive enough for the jesus carers and my heart isn't quite ready for years of repentance to join the holy spirit squad.

have any of you noticed these groups in your lives? are you apart of either? can you rationalize why or why not?

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

Orrin — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:52:09 -0000

word!

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

joseph of antioch — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:51:43 -0000

I have been pondering some questions Marks asks in the comments.

"What of our existing Christianity is actually Christian? What part of the Christian belief system is centered on Christ? And what part isn't?
It is easy for us all to conclude that two different religions are difficult to reconcile. But what about Christianity and a political ideology? What about Christianity and other systems of thought? Insofar as it is centered on Christ, Christianity is as much a political system as it is a religious system...in fact, it is a holistic system that transcends religion."

I have a funny little book called The Lost Sutras of Jesus. In 1900, a chinese monk was restoring paintings made in a buddhist cave temple when he came across a hidden chamber that contained 50,000 ancient, mostly buddhist books, manuscripts, & paintings. Among them were a few documents that were written by a syriac bishop from persia who travelled to china in the seventh century. They were his attempt to render the gospel into the chinese idiom. They are strange & beautiful, using concepts like karma & read like the tao of Jesus. But the beatitudes & other teachings of Jesus are clearly there. A form of chinese christianity arose from this effort that was known as the luminous religion. It was suppressed during a wave of political/cultural xenophobia in the eleventh century that also tried to suppress buddhism, (thus the hiding place for all the manuscripts). Buddhism survived in china, but the luminous religion did not. Were these true chistians? (For more info on the subject, try doing a web search on jesus sutras)

Bede Griffiths was an english benedictine monk of some 20 years who traveled to india, took the orange robes & life of a wandering hindu sannyasi. He eventually founded Shantivanam Ashram where he created a form of christianity that is by all appearances hindu. Fr Bede was known in india as a christian guru. The sannyassins of Shantivanam practice pujas or devotional rituals & hatha yoga, as well as baptism & the eucharist. The ashram also serves the poor in the surrounding villages. Was Fr Bede a true christian? Are the monks who follow this way true followers of Christ? (For more info, do a web search on bede griffiths, & on shantivanam. Check out any photos of the ashram you might come across)

Raimon Panikkar is the son of a spanish roman catholic mother & an indian hindu father. After he was ordained a roman catholic priest he traveled to india & began to study indian philosophy & religion. He has produced a large body of work on interreligious study & dialogue, & considers himself both hindu & christian. Is Fr Raimon a true follower of christ.? A good example of his work can be found here:
http://www.crosscurrents.or...

Just a little extra spice for the stew. :-)

peace
joseph

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:28:01 -0000

Ben...I suppose I could have fleshed things out further. I don't ever assume that being a disciple happens outside of community. Discipleship must always be understood in the context of us being a family of called-out ones. So, if my question seems to imply individualism, then it is due to sloppy writing rather than intent.

While Orrin probably doesn't consider himself a formal part of our church...he has certainly, in some ways, been a regular part of our community. He's broken bread with us, engaged in deep conversation regarding faith with us, and served along side us. And in all of that the common bonds have been friendship and a shared love for Jesus. The understanding of what that love for Jesus...and who Jesus was and is...isn't necessarily the same. But I think that there is something pure about the way Orrin has been a part of our community that I don't want to invalidate because he doesn't embrace Christianity. Nor does that mean that I think that everything in Christianity is up for grabs. For me, following Jesus is more of a vector than it is a bounded set. In other words, it is more important that one is moving towards Christ than it is that someone gives intellectual ascent to certain beliefs about Christ (especially those unstated beliefs embedded in Christianity that are actually antithetical to the teachings of Christ).

And so, to answer your question: "How do we maintain the socio-political [and religious and economic etc] nature of the Gospel along with the idea that one can adequately follow Jesus outside the context of the church?"

My quick and dirty answer: "We can't." And the fact that people think that you can is a sign of our being infected with that spiritual disease called modernism.

Some may bristle at this seemingly Catholic conviction that there is "no salvation outside of the church." But to me it is all in how one understands "salvation" and "church." To me, salvation isn't an "in or out" sort of issue as much as it is a matter of whether or not we are experiencing the life of Christ. And church is that collection of humanity that experiences the Spirit together in the way of Christ. Bells and smells flow out of that...they don't constitute the church.

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:13:19 -0000

That is the question. And there isn't a quick and easy answer. That is why we need to reject simplistic answers like: "Believe this one page list of truths, pray this particular prayer, and then avoid this one page list of sins."

Re: Buddhist Follower of Jesus?

markvans — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:11:21 -0000

Orrin. You crack me up, dude. :) Thanks for dropping by and helping us move beyond ethno-centrism into postmodernism (and hopefully, eventually, into post-post-modernism). ;)