the Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in Making Room For The Non-Academic

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Jason Barr — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:30:07 -0000

I suspect that a lot of the academic posts on this site are an attempt at grappling through lofty, challenging ideas in the attempt to flesh them out.

Mark, this is EXACTLY how I'm working through things. It's funny, because I know I have academic aptitude but I don't ever really think of myself as a "high and lofty" type of thinker... but glancing back through some of my posts I see several hallmarks of academic-style writing that may be more off-putting than I had ever intended (my intent is quite the opposite, really).

The thing is, I don't want to sound "smart", I want to engage with others these ideas that are challenging me. I could give a darn if I sound smart or if I sound like an elementary reader. So... Thank you, Ariah, for mentioning this and thanks to everyone for the great discussion. It's something I need to consider probably more actively than I generally do.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

mattk — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:46:17 -0000

I guess I'm coming a little late to this discussion, but I just wanted to add one thought that seemed to be lurking behind some of the posts but never fully articulated: I feel like this issue is never simply a question of the "academic" or the "intellectual" vs. the "non-academic," "simple," or "straight-forward." As a grad student myself (though not in theology), I spend most of my time reading thinkers I do not understand and struggle to make even the most basic sense out of. Then when I come home to my family, they think I'm the intellectual one and they're the ones who struggle to make heads or tails out of what I'm saying. (Until my wife--a nurse--starts telling me about her day, then once again I'm lost!)

What I mean is that each one of us is on a different "level" or in a different field of discourse and will therefore define what is "academic" or "non-academic" quite differently. I certainly have family members who wouldn't bother reading your original post, Ariah--they'd dismiss it as too high falutin'. (And I can only dream about writing a novel!) All this to say that I definitely appreciate this discussion--this is a serious problem in the Church and I'm glad so many are thinking deeply about it--but it's never just a simple dichotomy.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

joe troyer — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:35:20 -0000

While I am happy to critique and offer suggestions on how we can all understand different posts and dialogue better, don't neccessarily let up. My mind and spirit are challenged when I am forced to truly engage in what I am reading. It makes me better for it. Sure, there are definate posts I just skip over because I am not in the mood to try and tackle a "John Howard Yoder" style offering.So sure, there are times it would be great to have a "Jesus Manifesto For Dummies" lol. But I am overall challenged and excited by what God is doing in my life through this journey I am on and Jesus Manifesto plays a role in that. It is good to have my intelect challenged as well as my spirit.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

James McMahon — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 12:39:33 -0000

I agree with Jordan. I am open to critique or dialogue to clarify anything I have written that seems like a foreign language. I have been in that position many times in school, with the worst being a course in philosophical theology where it took almost half the semester before any of us in the class could understand what we were reading. I try to find a balance but as my wife often critiques I have a tendency to view everyone as a graduate student (which is probably why I am most comfortable in that environment). I am continually working on trying to find that balance though and I am open to anyone helping me move in that direction.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Jordan Peacock — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:45:06 -0000

I remember a conversation I had with Greg Boyd a few months back; the questions I was grappling with and the concerns I had; he was the first person I was able to honestly share them with because, first and foremost, they were too 'deep' for most people - they were the result of some hard searching and a few years of university/bible school, working in churches and reading in depth. I had to spend a while to bring most people up to speed in order to merely communicate what I had problems with.

What that meant then, was that if I simply said what I had trouble believing or concerns I had, all most people heard was 'heretic', 'atheist', 'troublemaker', etc, and they felt it was unfounded because the reasons I had didn't make sense to them. At worst it could be dangerous to their own faith, and Boyd was advocating extreme caution in this area.

I've been very thankful for the people here for the fact that they have created an open area to discuss some of these issues; that has freed me to work on some articles of concepts I've studied over the last few years. Unfortunately my 'default' is to right extremely densely; my professors at university actually mark me down for using language that is too complex!!

So I have about 6 articles in the works, but it takes me a while to digest and break them down to the point that they cover the same material, but are 'on the bottom shelf'. As the saying goes, if a five-year-old doesn't get it, you probably are explaining insufficiently.

The usual challenge is that the barrier of entry until now (Barth, Ellul, Bonhoeffer, even people like Chesterton) required being deep enough in Christian studies and action to see a need, and usually relying on some of the above academics for help moving out of the status quo. Mark's doing a great job knocking that dependency down, by fostering conversation in places like these, but everyone else here is absolutely correct; more needs to be done.

I would be honoured if you (Ariah, Joe, MountainGuy, anybody else) would critique my work as it comes out; let me know if it's not accessible enough and I'll definitely edit based on your suggestions.

Peace

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 01:12:02 -0000

Don't get me wrong...formal theological education is great. But there is a better way. The university system (which sprung up in the middle ages and continues to exert influence over modern education) has benefited many. But it has its own theological assumptions, and has its drawbacks. I think it would be helpful to think of viable alternatives.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

James McMahon — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 00:43:01 -0000

I think most of the problem with the bad relationship between Church and Academy is on the Academy side of things. I don’t believe in the “trickle down” theory of ideas. We need to plunder the Academy and bring it back into the church.

Mark,

Your preaching to the choir, but I guess my perspective is a little different since I am coming out of a private Christian university setting where I have personally seen the 'trickle down' effect of ideas leaving the classroom and being put into practice in the creation of urban ministries begun at the student level and turning into full fledged domestic missionary activity by supporting congregations (which were previously not open to doing domestic missionary work) with the creation of Christian operated free medical clinics, education programs, homeless ministry, etc. From what I have seen and done in congregational settings I think that as our generation begins to enter leadership/clergy positions in congregations the missional nature of the early church will have a resurgence on a much larger scale as more and more students go through Christian seminaries and universities and are prepared for ministry by a younger generation of professors. That's the way I see it playing out, just based on my personal experience.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Casey Ochs — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 22:41:53 -0000

I tend to agree with Mark on this one. The Protestant Reformation (at least on continental Europe) had its origins in the university environment, but it was the movement's alliance with various states and princes which allowed it to survive.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

James McMahon — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:43:13 -0000

Michael,
I read that book when I was finishing my undergraduate education before entering graduate school. The professor who asked us to read it wanted us to understand that the knowledge we had gained (and would gain) in college made us dangerous to the church especially if we used it to exercise power over other Christians or to damage their faith. I hope that I have never done either in my preaching, teaching, or writing because that will never be my intention. I may try to make people stretch and exercise their minds (as well as my own) but only so we can better understand what it means to follow after Jesus.

Mark,
I actually think the Protestant Reformation was university driven, most of the leaders came out of that environment. The Radical Reformation was a different animal altogether, most of its early leaders came out of the priesthood. However, I think you are correct to point out that there was also a grass roots reformation occurring simultaneously. Sounds a bit like what we are seeing here, huh.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:36:27 -0000

That is a great little book. It should be read by everyone who ever studies theology academically. Seriously.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Michael Cline — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:22:22 -0000

I appreciate James' perspective, as I too have goals that eventually involve working in Academia. On the other hand, like James, I love the Church and see my work as a service for Her. This is one reason why I am involved in Jesus Manifesto, ChristArchy, pastoring in the local church, etc... all while going to school. It's a hard balance, but one that has to be maintained.

I know the solution to this scenario is hardly to read more, but at the risk of being scouffed at, I'll suggest a book (especially to James): Helmut Thelicke's "A Little Exercise For Young Theologians." The book pretty much changed my perspective on this very issue and gradually shifted the blame (in my eyes) away from the local congregations who I previously thought just wanted to remain in ignorance, and onto the Academy who nonchalantly practice "power over" others with their theological language and expertise. A lot of it agrees probably with what Mark is getting at in his latest post to this thread.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:15:38 -0000

I'd like to push back on the last two comments.

Greg, powerful ideas can be powerfully dangerous. While there is foolishness in just talking smack without ever doing anything, there is also foolishness in ignoring ideas and embracing anti-intellectualism. This isn't simply a question of balance between the two--it is a question of finding the proper relationship between ideas and practice. Ideas without practice is mere talk, but practice without ideas is mere activity.

James, I'm not at all convinced that the Reformation began in the university...not really. The reason the magisterial reformers get credit is that they were able to broker deals with people of power because of their lofty status in the University. But there were non Academics spreading ideas before it got to that point. It is a murky history. And the Radical Reformers were largely outside of the University.

I'm all for advocating intellectual rigor. But I'm not sure that has to go hand-in-hand with affirming the University. I think most of the problem with the bad relationship between Church and Academy is on the Academy side of things. I don't believe in the "trickle down" theory of ideas. We need to plunder the Academy and bring it back into the church.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

James McMahon — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:27:54 -0000

Greg,

I guess maybe you need to qualify the statement 'academic lip service to the gospel.'

I understand that at the grass roots level academic discussions seem irrelevant, but in all respect the overwhelming majority of Christians are part of mainstream, denominational, traditional Christian congregations. While the (unfortunately) small percentage of house church, neo-monastic communities, etc are more interested in 'real life and experience' than 'the stuff of academics' it will be through 'academics' that the future leaders of denominational Christianity are able to take what your community has done and apply it to the traditional congregational structure, because in order to be clergy, pastors, ministers etc. in those congregations one must go through the academy. That is why I take issue with the notion that academics gives 'lip service to the gospel.' The academic arena is where the Christian leaders of tomorrow are able to formulate all the 'academic stuff' into workable plans in congregational structures where most Christians exist. Both sides of this conversation are doing valuable work that should not be looked down upon.

I am indebted to one of my professors who said "any change you want to make in the church will occur long after your dead." It took centuries for the Catholic Church to admit that Luther was correct on some issues he raised against it, and most of us will never see the church universal embrace the change advocated today.

An interesting footnote is that the Protestant Reformation began in the university before it swept through the church.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Greg — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:24:17 -0000

one of my community members and house mates would always say "in the end a commitment to doing your own dishes is far more radical than all this radical posturing." that always encourages me when i fell overwhelmed by all the academic lip service to the gospel.

much love

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

daniel.t — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:07:24 -0000

Thanks for this post and all the responses. It encourages me to be in a community of people who are willing to grapple with what it means to live and learn together across a diversity of social, cultural, political, and educational backgrounds.

Perhaps we could generously amend the Apostle Paul to add that neither is there academic elite nor common bloggers, we are all one in Christ. It is such an honor to learn and share with all of you.

Peace

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:28:32 -0000

I agree. I would love for any of those readers whose primary language is Spanish to write in Spanish. We can get translation if necessary.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

JoshuaEllens — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:25:56 -0000

oh and i forgot...

mountainguy,

i think it would be refreshing to hear your observations and perspectives. go for it. your english shouldn't be a barrier for this. however if you're more comfortable go ahead and write in spanish. i am fluent in spanish and would be willing to translate. email me if you're interested ellens.joshua [at] gmail.com

by the way, my wife is from Peru, so i have a vested interest in the Latin American perspective. seriously, i think you should share ;)

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

JoshuaEllens — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:18:38 -0000

i don't think anyone [who does not consider themselves an academic] should be afraid to post something on this site. i doubt that anyone here will judge anyone based on that. i think we'll find that as more and more non-academics [myself included, as i only have a highschool education] begin to write articles here, that JesusManifesto will develop a more eclectic personality. It will be a harmony of different voices. After all this is the purpose of the site. It is the duty of the more learned of us here to share freely [and humbly] with others the gift of knowledge, and likewise it is the DUTY of the less academic of us to share our perspective, neither is more important than the other. So rather than feel intimidated by our [academic] brothers and sisters, let us be very grateful for the gifts they've shared with us. And as we probably have not been living up to our own duty, let us share our gifts generously in the form of many many non-academic posts!

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

joe troyer — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:39:05 -0000

One thing that has really helped me is reading different books. Some go a little over my head, but I find the more I read,the more up to speed I feel. Also, the more time I spend in the blogosphere the better as well. Shoot, I think blogging is where I first learned the words "ontilogical"(sp) and "christian democrat"...

c'mon gang, that was a little funny...

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

James McMahon — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:28:07 -0000

I guess as someone in academia who plans to spend his career in that environment I have a hard time accepting that the 'stuff of academics' is not part of real life and experience. Much of the practical stuff on this site is the result of the 'stuff of academics' who first worked on these things.

If one reads Bonhoeffer for example, one will find a very academic theologian writing in the language of the academics of his time, a language that the church of his era did not understand fully. It took fifty or sixty years before his 'academic stuff' was able to translate into practical application. Basically what I am saying is that Bonhoeffer described his vision of real life Christianity, but it was done in academic terms that a later generation translated into something that could be practiced more readily. Rather than see it as an either/or proposition ("real life" vs. "academic") it should be viewed as a dialogue between Christians trying to take big issues or concepts and whittle them down into practical reality or vice-a-versa.

As I tell people in Bible study groups, we all have something to teach one another about the things of God, we all should share the goal of helping one another grow, but we all just have different ways in which to accomplish that. One of the things I like about this site is that the conversation, more often than not, is conducted in a Christian manner with an openness to hearing all the voices represented.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:22:33 -0000

I think the approach that you took on this post was great...you raised an issue and invited people to explore it with you.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Corey — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:20:02 -0000

Thanks Ariah! I agree that it's very important to move the "stuff of academics" into the realm of real life and experience. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on here!!!

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

mountainguy — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:15:38 -0000

thanks for sharing your feelings. Somewthing quite similar happens to me. I'm colombian, and although I have a good basic knowledge of english language, sometimes I think my english is not so good as other Jesusmanifesto bloggers. I'd like to write something, I have a few ideas in mind, and I hope may God help me to get them through.

greetings.

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

ariahfine — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:56:22 -0000

Thanks for the Comments Everyone!

@Mark: I definitely didn't mean this is a critique of you, I can understand your struggle as an editor, and it's mostly my fault since your so willing to publish my simple stuff, I could be that other voice on the site.
That being said, thanks also for understanding the need to struggle with this.

@Michael: Thanks for chiming in. I'll be honest, I didn't read your post. I skimmed it, but I'll be honest, big words like 'ideology' and others scare me (I'm sounding like a wuss aren't I?). Even mentions of Marx and Ellul, though I love the reflections I've seen come from the writings, tend to be hard to digest.

@Anna and Joe: Thanks for the encouragement.

I believe the goal is not only to struggle with the academic issues, but to constantly try and struggle with them in such a way that others can engage (basically what Mark said)...
"how do we explore challenging and lofty ideas on this site in such a way that non-academics still free to engage in the process of fleshing things out?"

Re: Making Room For The Non-Academic

Mark Van Steenwyk — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:49:15 -0000

That is part of the challenge. When you go off to seminary and start learning stuff, you have to spend a long time grappling with the academic stuff before you can make it down-to-earth.

I suspect that a lot of the academic posts on this site are an attempt at grappling through lofty, challenging ideas in the attempt to flesh them out. It isn't a "nerd orgy"--a bunch of intellectual talk that doesn't go anywhere. Instead, it is an attempt to move from reflection to action.

After all, when I write academically, it isn't because I am trying to be an elitist. It is often my way of grasping at ideas in the best (and sometimes only) way I know. But my heart is always to work it out into the outflow of my life.

I'm glad this issue is being raised; thank you for the post, Ariah. I'm not sure there is a quick and easy answer to the issue, but I think we'd be better off if we commit ourselves to struggling with it.

The challenge for us is this: how do we explore challenging and lofty ideas on this site in such a way that non-academics still free to engage in the process of fleshing things out?