the Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Mark Van Steenwyk — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:03:21 -0000

Well...if I had some funds for this site, it could be interesting. It all depends upon the amount.

Let's say, for some reason, I were able to secure through various sources $1000 a month. Here's what I'd do with it:

$50/month to general maintenance and related costs and software upgrades and whatnot
$300/month would be used to supplement my income for the amount of time I put into the site
$400/month could be used to pay two assistant editors $200/month to help with the editing, for an increase in their own writing contributions, and to spend time seeking out new content/writers. I'd probably have each of them focus on different fields...like one who writes almost exclusively about culture/film/art and one who comments about news/politics/etc. Or something like that. That would allow us to grow in two areas that I feel are under-represented here.

WIth the $250 that is left, I'd probably use that for travel expenses to cover events, or perhaps set some aside for us to have some events of our own. The really cool thing about how Jesus Manifesto is developing is that for many people, it isn't simply about content...it has become a place where they rethink their faith and a place for community. It would be quite easy to have smaller conferences that exist to gather readers and reinforce the ideas of Jesus Manifesto.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Heather W. Reichgott — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:38:03 -0000

Tough call.

Just like other kinds of ministry and nonprofit work: You CAN do it for free, as a gift to the community. (If you want to and can manage it, of course.) Or the community can support your work financially--especially if the community really thinks the work is important, or if you can do more for the community with funding than you can do for free.

My little blog is done for free, as something between a gift and a fun hobby, and my couple dozen readers a day seem to like it... and for free, there's only so much that I can do with it.

I wonder what a fundraising appeal would look like if oriented toward what the extra money does for the community of Jesus Manifesto. Would there be more articles? More in-depth researched articles? More translations? More collaborative projects? Or other changes beyond just "more" of stuff?

I don't think that's selling out. I think it's an opportunity to make a project more interesting with community support. Doing a ministry (any ministry) as a gift is lovely, but no one's ability to give is unlimited, except the Almighty's, I suppose.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Mark Van Steenwyk — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:32:05 -0000

Based upon feedback (which I'm filtering through my own convictions), I'm going to carefully explore promoting organizations and services/products that I appreciate. But I'm certainly not going to simply slap up google ads.

I will also look into forging partnership with organizations that might be interested in funding Jesus Manifesto.

Don't expect to see changes anytime soon. And if you do see changes happening here that you don't like, let me know. I'm open to feedback.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Dany — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 02:09:16 -0000

I don’t really care how a website like JM it is funded (or actually, I do: shares in the arms trade are out ;-)), but I would want it to be sustainably funded! And in my experience donations or ads will not provide an adequate compensation for the work done here. C.f. that famous comment by Peter Maurin, when he started relying on donations rather than charging for his teachings, the students: “didn’t let him starve”.

The problem we’ve got is not that the readers of JM are necessarily ungenerous, they might be broke, or they might be giving of their resources somewhere else i.e. have other priorities. In my experience, relying on donations would provide only a very small and uneven amount of financial resources. Ads are not great either, unless -as suggested by the first comment-, you sell the spot yourself, for a decent amount.

I see several possibilities for sustainable funding: (1) Get a part time job, do less work on this stuff and delegate more. (2) If at all possible, work with a nearby church. It would be great if a mainstream church started operating in symbiosis with neomonastics: you drag them out of their apathy some of the time with talks and stuff for them to do, they start supporting you a bit. (3) If at all possible, find grants from organisations that would like to fund the work that goes into JM. (4) If at all possible, rethink responsibilities within a congregation or within a housing community. There I would repeat Jordan’s comment: “at certain points the congregation must ask the question: will it be more effective for us as a collective ministry to support a couple individuals full time as the rest continue part time, in order to better further the purposes of the gospel?”.

I'm not too sure about this comment, I'm writing it after a night's insomnia, so I hope y'all forgive me if the tone is not right.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

graham — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:20:25 -0000

Thanks, Jonas.

I actually completely agree with all of that. However, I'm not sure that you're as primitivist as you think you are!

The reason I was asking for clarification is because I wasn't sure how that was relevant to what Mark is talking about here. He's not our pastor, after all.

Also, bearing in mind that I agree with your comment, I've always found the following quote insightful: "There is all the difference in the world between paying someone to do a job and releasing them to do a ministry." (Can't remember source.) Of course, why we assume that such 'releasing' must always be for the leaders is not clear to me!

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jason Weaver — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:43:28 -0000

Hey Mark,

I know I am a little behind on my reader this week, but I wanted to respond.

First, absolutely I think blogging is legitimate form of ministry. There is a wealth of blogs out there that are part of this generative conversation towards a better reflection of Christ in our lives, and for many it is their only opportunity to be a part of these conversations.

Second, as someone who has enough trouble maintaining one new blog, I can only imaging the work that must go into your thorough & thoughtful posts, plus the efforts to act as the editor for this great thing that the Manifesto has grown into. You should be compensated for your time just like everyone else -- monetarily. You could barter, but since you are providing editorial services for your own creation I am confident that the other guy wouldn't have anything you don't already have.

Lastly, the one big difference that comes to ming between appropriate means and "selling out," is in the desire behind the request -- and you said it all in your second question.

- Appropriate means is seeking to "be compensated for their time."

- "Selling out" is seeking to turn a profit.

It is the difference between asking yourself, "How can I be compensated for the increasing amount of time that I give to keep Jesus Manifesto a great place to read the thoughts, questions, and dreams of several like-minded writers?", and "What changes can I make to this site, to utilize it's product and traffic to bring in the most money?"

It is obvious to me from this website and its content that you do this to better the world, not to better your bottom line.

This is a great site, you have an ever-increasing responsibility (that never suffers in quality because of quantity), and you should be compensated for all of the work you do to give this gift to us.

Many thanks and blessings for the work that you and the writers do, to help us grow.

Jason

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jonas Lundström — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:17:09 -0000

Graham. I think the main principle (being a primitivist and all) is that "elders" (as all believers) should work with their hands (with christ-friendly jobs in which they can seek the kingdom of God...) in order to fill their needs. Of course, there might be some good exceptions, and I think the NT mentions "widows" and travelling sent-out-ones as the main ones, probably since working in the "normal" way for those people is not the option.

Anyway, of course we can receive any freely given gifts from each other (I don´t even believe in private property, for God´s sake!), as long as it is not a question of economic abundance (which it often is, of course, but probably not in Mark´s case). My problem is with certain believers given a fixed, regular amount of money to another believer so that the second believer can fulfill her/his God-given gifts/roles. As I see it, huge problems comes with this;
-it will appear, at least to some, as if serving with our gifts is an employment
-it will keep on (at least with the history we have) dividing believers into laity and clergy
-it will make the "minister" less free to say or do what the Spirit wants her/him to and will tempt her/him to do what is popular
-it will produce "ministers" that will be tempted to leave "ministry" whenever the economical base vanishes (the hired shepherd of John 10)
-it will produce "ministers" that are tempted to speak, not out of burning passion and belief, but because they have in order to make their living
-for this reasons and others it will also tempt the "minister" to not live in simple trust in God in the way that Jesus has taught us

Actually, I am a bit surprised that I even have to explain this when talking to anarchists and anabaptists... ;)

And by the way, if Michael is still listening, would you explain why my argument is "naive". To me it seems to be the opposite way. To make the ministry dependent on adds etc, believing that this won´t affect the message or the "minister", to me this is the naive position. (I am just being honest, I am not trying to hit back. I hope.)

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

graham — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:48:23 -0000

Jonas,

I'm not completely sure I understand your position here - and you'll recall that we've discussed this a couple of times before.

I would oppose pastors being paid a salary, but I have no problem with supporting other Christians for a ministry that could not otherwise take place. As Mark has suggested, both Paul and Jesus provide the model for this.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Steven Kippel — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:24:07 -0000

Asking if a web editor should be compensated is a difficult question. With how the internet has developed, personal sites are every bit as informative and helpful as an organization or corporate site. Some people do it free, and others are paid. I get paid for a tech blog but I would feel shame for being paid for any work for God.

For an example from my own life: I play in a worship band. We don't ask for money and never bring the topic up but our hosts will frequently give us an honorarium. Paid to worship God? That's a weird feeling. How can worship be commoditized? (That's an indictment on the "worship industry as a whole.)

I believe this will definitely be a personal decision, but it does help to seek advice.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jordan Peacock — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:58:42 -0000

I'm perfectly fine with ministers not receiving a salary or being on 'staff'.

In Kuwait when I was there, the vast majority of those involved with the church (even to a pastoral level) are not on staff or salaried.

Nevertheless, at certain points the congregation must ask the question: will it be more effective for us as a collective ministry to support a couple individuals full time as the rest continue part time, in order to better further the purposes of the gospel?

The issues, as I see them, are less a 'biblical mandate' - I don't see the scriptures that blog posting mentioned as really forcing the issue one way or the other.

The concerns I would have are that on the one hand, assuming the ministers should be supported may mean overpaid/underworked pastors in some settings, and also potentially lead to a congregational dependency where they serve only vicariously.

On the flip side, there are many overworked/underpaid ministers out there and the question to the congregation is whether we aggravate the situation by forcing them to spin plates or can we relieve some of the pressure? But this should be a decision that is made explicitly, rather than assumed.

PS: Note that the word 'ministers' may or may not include pastors as I'm using it.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jonas Lundström — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:53:11 -0000

I am not sure I want to press my case further. I was just, since Mark asked for it in the post, giving my view of this, since every body else seemed to be saying something different. I am perfectly aware that there comes maturity with age, if we keep on following the narrow path. (Some don´t, you know.) I just don´t think it is valid argument to name a position as "naive".

I am not alone in my interpretation of this (though it definitely is a minority perspective), and I deny that this is primitivism. It´s a question of the integrity of the gospel, we should do everything possible to make the gospel appear as something that is free (and costs all). And the same with our spiritual gifts (which I take not to refer to whatever interests, work assignments and talents we happen to have). There are good answers to the texts mentioned here, I recommend for example
http://assembling.blogspot.com/2007/10/summary-...,
and the links connected to this. Or Frank Viola (Pagan Christianity). If someone
wants to discuss this further, I can give my view, but otherwise I will drop it.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Michael Cline — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:13:35 -0000

In 2 Corinthians chapters 8 and 9, Paul seems to basically be pumping up the Corinthians ahead of time before the offering plates are being passed. Their tithe goes towards the ministry in other churches and to Paul's pursuits around the Church universal. Oddly enough, chapter 10 starts off with Paul feeling the pressure to defend his ministry.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Anna — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:06:21 -0000

Blogads might be a good avenue. They require 500 hits + daily and you can be somewhat choosy as to who you let ad with the site.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Maria Kirby — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:48:50 -0000

On a more practical note: what about selling the email delivery service as a subscription? For say $.05-.10/day. The basic content is available to anyone who visits the site, but those that want it in their inbox pay a little. It still would not cost as much as an equivalent newspaper or magazine and JM has a lot more content than a magazine.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Mark Van Steenwyk — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:28:10 -0000

First off, it is certainly worthwhile to recognize that wisdom can come with age. Younger people are generally less wise than older people.

Secondly, Jonas, I think you're wrong in some of you assumptions about the economics of the Bible. Paul didn't always work with his hands. He did that in Corinth, certainly, but sometimes he lived off of the generous hospitality of his hosts.

Paul also taught that elders are worthy of "double honor" which many take to be an economic statement. He also said that we shouldn't "muzzle an ox." All of this is to say that people like Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles lived off of the hospitality of others...and sometimes Paul would settle in and work his trade if he felt he needed to do so.

It is a mistake, I believe to think we should do things precisely that way...that falls into the trap of primitivism, which says "we should do things exactly the way they did things in the New Testament." We live in a very different world when it comes to things like economics and household practices. Instead we should strive to do things for the same (or similar) theological reasons. In other words, our hospitality should still be hospitality, even if it looks different. And people should provide for those who labor among them.

You say: "If people would freely help us with basic supplies, it´s ok to receive it, but we should not take it for granted." I agree...but what are "basic supplies?" Shouldn't EVERYONE live off of simply "basic supplies?"

Should anyone ever take any financial support for granted? Why should teachers and evangelists and apostles and prophets and pastors not eagerly ask for support as the Apostle Paul did in almost every one of his letters? Paul only occasionally plied his trade for his well being. Jesus spent 3 years without working a trade, as far as we can tell.

I think you are setting a more rigid standard than even Scripture asks for. And I'm not sure we should simply take what Scripture says and plop it into our own context directly anyways.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Michael Cline — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:29:43 -0000

While I appreciate Jordan's coming to my defense (or at least backing me up a bit), I think you are both taking my statement way more serious than it was intended. Perhaps I overstated, but I was simply trying to say that the attitude of "running ads makes you a sell-out" is naive and immature. Jonas, I didn't think you had this attitude, therefore, in no way was my comment directed at you. Trust me, I'm far from thinking I'm mature.

This is the peril of blogging and online communication. Much harder to get the "meaning" of the text without "embodiment." (critical realism) Or, if you prefer Speech-Act theory:You read my "locution" but missed my intended "illocution." Wow, I really need to get out of hermeneutics for a while.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jonas Lundström — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:28:12 -0000

Jordan. He used it in a context where the issue was Mark´s question and survey, so the context suggests that his statement was normative, at least within this context. But the author may be willing to clear up what his intention was?

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jordan Peacock — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:20:30 -0000

I don't think Michael's argument was a blanket statement for everyone; it sounded more illustrative of when his 'epiphany' occurred. That was a turning point where his ideas changed, but I doubt very much that it was meant as true for everyone everywhere.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jonas Lundström — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:06:15 -0000

Cline. I get a little upset with your age-argument. Age is no automatic road to christian maturity. Using the "I am older and you are younger, and therefore I am right"-line of reasoning might be effective and powerful, but I don´t think it´s very Jesus-like (or Pauline). If your 18-years-old-position was not genuine and solid enough, that doesn´t necessarily mean that you were wrong, but now have grown up and become "mature". I am 33 and Jesus was 33 (if we believe the gospels more than Iraeneus..), and both me and Jesus thinks that the gospel should be given for free. ;) Jesus seems to be very "naive" in his view of money (Matthew 6). "Maturity" is actually often a cover-up for sell out. Probably not in your case, though. But the age-argument makes me angry, I have to confess.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Michael Cline — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:45:03 -0000

We've already talked a bit about this in person, but I'll just say that I completely understand your urge to find compensation, not only for the sake of living expenses, but for the sake of expanding the ministry you feel God has led you to. Connecting with your clan and Jesus Manifesto has been a great tool of learning and understanding to me personally. If I wasn't in the same boat you were, I'd write you a monthly check to cover costs!

I used to think that anyone who had ads or went "commercial" was "selling out"--

............................................And then I turned 19..........................................................

This isn't about being "indie"...it's about being faithful, that is the only goal worth striving for (a good friend of mine recently gave me this advice via facebook). In no way would you be detouring from that goal if you found a way to fund this endeavor. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Meeting with churches, reps from other ministries, promotion, editing, whatever...you know I"m here.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Maria Kirby — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:28:22 -0000

I didn't mind your asking for donations, I minded not being able to donate.

I don't mind ads. (I'm not entirely sure where's the beef with being commercial, except that it doesn't fit into the traditional church mold -as if blogs do.)

Grants are great -if you can find someone.

Sharing responsibilities sounds good too, (probably a necessity in any case).

Some of the postings might be able to be sold to magazines or other traditional media.

I think this kind of space is important as we move into an age where more and more people are online. I think this is a pretty good face for the church online. I grateful that you have had the vision to put this together.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

jurisnaturalist — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:51:04 -0000

By all means, get some ads up, or find some support. You should not be doing this for free unless you want to. The worker is worthy of his hire.

In general, do you think of blogging or webzines as legitimate ministry?
Absolutely. Articulation of truth is essential, and providing the church a space on the internet is missional.

How do you think web editors should be compensated for their time?
According to individual contracts.

How do we find the balance between appropriate means of financial requests and “selling-out?” Where is the line?
If you are providing a valuable service, people will be willing to pay for it. Advertisers would be willing to pay for exposure to your audience. The sell-out occurs when the content changes in response to a desire to earn more money and neglects the direction of the Holy Spirit. In other words, only you can know, so I won't even try to judge.
Nathanael Snow

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jordan Peacock — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:58:31 -0000

That's what I figured, just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing here.

Btw, good job on the extra languages bit. Will it attempt to auto-translate comments as well or just article content?

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Jonas Lundström — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:58:30 -0000

I like your way to bring this question up in this way, it´s a good decision so far as I can tell.
-I think blogging can be legitimate ministry and I think this site is a good example of this. As I see it, blogging can be different things, for example spreading the good news (evangelism) or teaching, this site would mainly fall into the last category. Since I believe that teaching/prophecy should be discussed and not just swallowed or rejected, blogging is a better medium than books or articles.
-I think people within Christ´s body with teaching roles/gifts and the like, should serve (like others with other roles/gifts) without expecting economic pay-off. The gospel should be given for free. If people would freely help us with basic supplies, it´s ok to receive it, but we should not take it for granted. For this to be possible, the normal way to do it is to work with one´s hands, as Paul taught and practised it. Sometimes work hard. This might be scary, especially for people like me that has spent their whole lives within "the ministry" and different bible schools and seminaries, and it might make it impossible to give as much time to "ministry" as the ones can do that receives salary for using their gifts of grace, but it keeps the integrity of the gospel in a better way. (An exception to this rule could be people sent out and moving around in order to spread the message) I think. But few agree, I know.

Re: Mammon, you cruel bastard!

Mark Van Steenwyk — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:42:15 -0000

Hey bnut...you are hardly the typical former soldier / copy editor. And I'm just surprised I don't see you commenting here more! (by the way, everyone b-nut is friend and neighbor).

By web editor, I mean me :) Writing is only about 1/3 of what I do on this site.