the Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in Reputable Peace

Re: Reputable Peace

hewhocutsdown — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:19:22 -0000

Good to have you here.

Re: Reputable Peace

markvans — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:14:03 -0000

Welcome Doug. I'm glad you're enjoying the site.

The only thing I want from Caesar is salad. ;)

Re: Reputable Peace

Doug — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:04:04 -0000

There are a ton of well thought out posts here, and I'm frankly thrilled to have stumbled across this site.
Honestly though, the Dalai Lama is a political ruler, as well as religious leader. A Tibet free of Chinese rule would be theocratic in nature... much as many fundamentalist Christians are currently attempting to create theocratic American structures of government... aaahh the religious right.

The thing that comes back to me as most salient in looking at the Path of Jesus as our path is the need to discern between that which belongs to Caesar, and that which belongs to God...
the world mistrusts American Christianity because it habitually renders ALL to Caesar... the "one nation under God" myth too often eclipses the will of God and the examples of Jesus... For example: giving one's life for others has somehow been confused with taking the life of an enemy...

Luckily, if Buddhism of any type is in America long enough, it too can become branded and marketed just like so much of main stream American Christianity...

We really need to decide that "Caesar's" had enough...

Re: Reputable Peace

joseph of antioch — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:04:59 -0000

Hi Mark

After a few days of reflection, I'm in pretty solid agreement with you. It is crucial to discern the important distinctions between buddhism & christianity, yet appreciate each tradition for it's uniqueness. When I was in the process of converting to christianity I came across the following quote from the martyred russian orthodox priest Father Alexander Men.

" It seems to me that everything that is valuable in christianity is valuable only because it is from Christ. What is not from Christ could belong as well to islam or buddhism.
Every religion is a path towards God, a conjecture about God, a human approach to God. It is a vector pointing upwards from below. But the coming of Christ is the answer, a vector coming from heaven towards us. On the one hand, an event situated in history, on the other hand, something quite outside history. That's why christianity is unique, because Christ is unique. "

I was for a time a starry eyed buddhist who thought that pre-invasion tibet was paradise & vajrayana buddhism the golden path as you describe. I also know some orthodox converts who feel much the same about pre-revolutionary tsarist russia. Ah, the delusions we weave, & what a hard fall when they come undone.

There are many americans who have been burned or disillusioned by christianity, turned to buddhism in search of some kind of coherent spiritual practice, & like your friend eventually turn back to Christ. There is a zen priest at a well known meditation center here in northern california who has been connecting with Mark Scandrette & Reimagine in SF. (He was a Jesus freak in the 70's). I know of another zen practitioner of 30 years who does not have a christian background, but who prays the psalms daily, lectures on the works of Dionysius the Areopagite, & publicly advocates prayer as an important spiritual practice. I know of yet another zen teacher who left buddhism & joined the catholic church amidst great scandal after being befriended by a woman who is a catholic contemplative. Things being what they are, I dare say there are probably a lot of buddhist-christian hybrids out there. And I hope that those who try to follow Christ can find ways to reach out to them in friendship.

peace
joseph

Re: Reputable Peace

joseph of antioch — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:55:04 -0000

After a few days of reflection, I'm in pretty solid agreement with Mark's last post. It is crucial to discern the important distinctions between buddhism & christianity, yet appreciate each tradition for it's uniqueness. When I was in the process of converting to christianity I came across the following quote from the martyred russian orthodox priest Father Alexander Men.

" It seems to me that everything that is valuable in christianity is valuable only because it is from Christ. What is not from Christ could belong as well to islam or buddhism.
Every religion is a path towards God, a conjecture about God, a human approach to God. It is a vector pointing upwards from below. But the coming of Christ is the answer, a vector coming from heaven towards us. On the one hand, an event situated in history, on the other hand, something quite outside history. That's why christianity is unique, because Christ is unique. "

I was for a time a starry eyed buddhist who thought that pre-invasion tibet was paradise & vajrayana buddhism the golden path. I also know some orthodox converts who feel much the same about pre-revolutionary tsarist russia. Ah, the delusions we weave, & what a hard fall when they come undone.

There are many americans who have been burned or disillusioned by christianity, turned to buddhism in search of some kind of coherent spiritual practice, & like Mark's friend eventually turn back to Christ. There is a zen priest at a well known meditation center here in northern california who has been connecting with Mark Scandrette & Reimagine in SF. (He was a Jesus freak in the 70's). I know of another zen practitioner of 30 years who does not have a christian background, but who prays the psalms daily, lectures on the works of Dionysius the Areopagite, & publicly advocates prayer as an important spiritual practice. I know of yet another zen teacher who left buddhism & joined the catholic church amidst great scandal after being befriended by a woman who is a catholic contemplative. Things being what they are, I dare say there are probably a lot of buddhist-christian hybrids out there. And I hope that those who try to follow Christ can find ways to reach out to them in friendship.

peace
joseph

Re: Reputable Peace

progressive faith — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:52:00 -0000

Markvans,

Worshipping Christ is worshipping the way. Christ is the way. Nobody is in or out. We are all incomplete and in need of transformation. As long as anyone is "out" none are "in".

Jesus wasn't killed because of WHO he claimed to be. He was killed because he was training people to resist the empire and undermining the authority of the temple by forgiving debts(sins) and declaring people healed (restoring community to outcasts). Those were tasks that only the temple had the authority to do (and made good money doing it). He did it himself and trained others to do it too. That is why they asked him "by what authority do you do these things?" That is why they wanted him dead.

Jesus suggested their reign of authority would soon be over and the temple would fall. It had nothing to do with metaphysical claims. Jesus didn't make any claims to be YHWH. He claimed to be in agreement (one) with YHWH in much the way I am one with my wife. Inseperable and yoked in agreement and purpose. Nobody comes to YHWH except through the way.

The path is to be lived. It is Christ. It is visible in Buddha's teachings too. It is a concept not a person just as Christ is a concept not a person. It is his spirit lived out in many forms. We are its living body. Christ is the incarnation of God in the world. It is God's wisdom (logos) lived out in the flesh and it existed since the beginning of humanity and was manifested clearly in Jesus. It is a complete transformation from selfishness to compassion and it has many forms and many symbols that represent it, but no symbol can contain it.

Jesus' followers were called people of the way long before we were called Christians.

Re: Reputable Peace

MichaelCline — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:05:08 -0000

Let it be so Kimberly.

What a great thing to read while ducking out from my bomb shelter over at my post. :)

Re: Reputable Peace

arkychicky — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:44:48 -0000

I'll play devil's advocate to my own piece.

Cultural Christianity is full of its own trappings. From plastic WWJD bracelets to designer rosaries, "by His stripes we are healed" (insert image of American flag) t-shirts to priestly collars, testamints to communion wafers - we have all kinds of items to help us feel like we are moving toward a deeper faith. A dear friend even bought me a "Christian" coffeemug for Christmas (sarcastically intentional). It is also steeped in customs, which vary from tradition to tradition (everything from Monday night "Visitation" to "stand-sit-kneel"). Naturally, this is what is being held out to the world.

However, that was my whole point for writing this piece? Why is that what we are holding out? Why do we buy things and perform rituals and allow this to be enough? Why do we satisfy ourselves with less than what was offered to us (or add things to what is needed)?

The world sees US American Christianity as consumeristic, selfish and arrogant.

Why doesn't the world see love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? These are the fruits of abiding in Christ and the presence of the Spirit in our lives.

They see this from Buddhism, Tibetan or otherwise.

They have every right to expect it, authentically, from the Church.

Re: Reputable Peace

joet — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:06:46 -0000

I don't attach any spiritual significance to my clothing and I do not give any additional respect to those that do. I am not making fun of them, I am saying that they are not a measure of spirituality.

Re: Reputable Peace

progressive faith — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:59:58 -0000

Joseph,

Thanks for sharing that! I don't know how other people here feel, but I appreciated it.

Re: Reputable Peace

MichaelCline — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:52:11 -0000

Just for my own benefit, where would you place me on the spectrum of hermeneutics based on my responses so far? I'm a little confused where you are going here and want to make sure I understand before responding further. And then, for a fun game of association, tell me who are your favorite model readers of this postmodern response that you embody?

Re: Reputable Peace

progressive faith — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:45:41 -0000

Joet,

You said: Second, it seems to me that Buddhism implies that spiritual perfection is achieved on the mountaintop, through rituals, and the wearing of silly hats.

I doubt you really think that. At least I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Their rituals (and ritualistic clothing), just like ours are made to help form character transformation and create community. Do people take them literally and get off-base? absolutely! Do some people mistake the symbol with the meaning? absolutely!

you said: "I think Christ fairly clearly demolished this impression of religion, by showing that whilst mountaintop experiences are sometimes wondrous, the real work is done in the pigsty, at the street corner, the execution ground and kneeling in the dirt."

Brilliant! I completely agree. Thank you for that comment. I find it hard to believe that came from the same person that made fun of another cultures ancient clothing. I bet your designer tennis shoes and hair gel looks pretty silly to them.

Re: Reputable Peace

progressive faith — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:38:52 -0000

Michael,

I think you've created a fictitional limited set of choices. You've assumed their are only the two modernistic alternatives:

A) reject modern knowledge of the Bible and universe because it invalidates a literal reading of our stores (fundamentalism)
or
B) reject the stories because we realize they are not historically accurate (secularism/atheism)

You've missed a third choice. You've missed the POSTmodern response that can embrace narrative, symbolism, and myth as MORE-than-literal while also recognizing the realities of modern knowledge. Truth is often more available in myth than it is in history.

Yes, Jesus probably would have rebuked Peter, BUT we don't have Jesus' answer we have a description of the conversation by later followers of Jesus who had already decided the point of Jesus life was a belief in things ABOUT him. I could also suggest that if believing something about Jesus was the point, then he sure wasted a whole bunch of time talking and doing things that were "off topic". I also wonder why even in these later writings, the certainty and detail of "who" Jesus was is left a bit ambiguous. He certainly could have made it abundantly clear if he wanted to.

Re: Reputable Peace

joseph of antioch — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:23:23 -0000

As for the chinese invasion & occupation. Tibet was an isolated, essentially medieval country before the invasion. Like many nationalities in the 20th century, they were conquered & divided up by a greater military power, with much rationalization for the action. Like the armenians & greeks in Turkey, the kurds in Turkey, Iraq, & Iran, the palestinians in Israel, their culture has been suppressed, their land stolen, & they've been imprisoned & killed at the convenience of their occupiers. In no sense, except perhaps a Maoist one, can this be considered liberation or equalizing.

Just so no one here thinks they are in any position to throw stones, what about American complicity in the destruction of the native christian communities in Israel & Iraq? George W's little war has devastated what was the largest remaining christian minority in the middle east.

If you want to educate yourself on the invasion of Tibet, read In Exile From The Land Of Snows by John Avedon. It's a little dated, written in the 1980s, but tells the story to that time in detail.

A good book about the state of christians in the middle east is From The Holy Mountain by William Dalrymple

peace
joseph - ranter & enthusiast

Re: Reputable Peace

joseph of antioch — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:44:44 -0000

I was a student of a Tibetan lama and practitioner of vajrayana (tibetan) buddhism for 5 years. My teacher was more Christ-like in his manner & behavior towards others than just about any christian I've ever met. This article is fairly balanced, but perpetuates a lot of misunderstanding about the Vajrayana tradition.

" The Tibetan people serve multiple deities, some of whom are full of vengeance. Their religious practices are in part, to appease the deities en route to obtaining enlightenment."

Vajrayana buddhism is a complex system & is not theistic as we understand it. The deities are not gods but representations of the qualities of mind, in both a cosmic & personal sense. The practices of vajrayana work directly with these qualities as a skillfull means to purify ones own mind. When you look at a representation of a wrathful deity, you're looking directly at the wrathful qualities of your own mind. In Nepal, where tantric buddhism & tantric hinduism have been practiced side by side for centuries, the alters in the the temple of the wrathful hindu goddess Kali run red with the blood of sacrificed animals. This doesn't happen in the buddhist temples because the point is not to appease the gods but to work directly to tame & purify ones own nature.

"Why is it that the world seems so taken by Tibetan Buddhism?"

Because Tibetan teachers offer an approachable, holistic, ethically & mystically oriented form of praxis.

"Why, then, is it that the world is not enamored with faith in Christ? Why isn’t Christianity the religion of peace?"

Because christianity in the west has become a simplistic & shallow cult of personal salvation that clings to a strange, persistent dichotomy between works & faith.
Because christianity in the west is proclaimed by the materially prosperous, well fed, middle class citizens of a corporate/military/industrial empire that has obtained their prosperity at the cost of untold human misery at home & abroad.
Because there are far too few christians who follow Christ by example.

In the end, I stopped practicing vajrayana buddhism. I was disillusioned by how I & many other western students approached this tradition. American consumerism taints our approach to any true religious practice. A few years ago I was gracefully drawn to the eastern orthodox church. Eastern christianity still preserves the holistic christian praxis that was devastated in the west by the politics of the reformation & by modernity. But it is clear to me that I never would have been able to practice orthodox christianity if I had not known my tibetan teacher. He is an examplar of devotion, humility, & kindness, & I believe that God works through him despite the fact that he would never use the word God.

I see some glimmer of hope for western christianity in the emergent conversation. But many (not all) of the comments here exhibit the self-righteous, self-satisfied, & shallow understanding of other traditions that is characteristic of american evangelical christianity. If our society is becoming pluralistic & post-christendom (God willing!) then taking up the practice of true interreligious dialogue just might be worthwhile for emergents & missional types. American christians would do well to look at the habits of mind that obscure our vision. If George W Bush & the christian right had understood that much of the darkness that they projected onto others was their own, then we might not have been led into the destructive crusade in Iraq that has cost many thousands of lives.

A good book on Tibetan buddhist & christian dialogue is The Good Heart, a series of conversations between the Dalai Lama & christian monks.

a website that has a couple of good accounts by western buddhists who became eastern orthodox:
http://www.strannik.com/watchful_gate/index2.html

peace
joseph - former yogi

Re: Reputable Peace

markvans — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:27:39 -0000

I have a new (and quickly becoming close) friend who, when pressed, describes himself as a buddhist follower of Jesus Christ. We certainly don't see eye to eye on everything. And he is clearly trying to integrate to the two faiths. But I think he would be the first to point out that the two aren' t the same path. If they were, he wouldn't want to integrate them.

I'm not on the same page with him about trying to integrate the two paths. To me, the way of Jesus is sufficient, though I truly believe that learning from Buddhist and other eastern thinking may help me find freedom from those Western thought tendencies that enslave my mind and keep me from embracing Christ more fully.

And so, I don't think we should be down on Buddhism. But we certainly shouldn't be naive. Most Westerners that I meet who think Buddhism is a golden path free from division have had such bad experiences with Christianity that they see all of its flaws and few of its virtues, and have at the same time had a positive experience of Buddhism where they see most of its virtues and few of its flaws.

The truth is, people are flawed. And that flawedness finds its way into all religions. And each of those religions has unique was of exploring how humanity experiences the divine.

But, and I believe this with all of my heart, Jesus is the One who brings the Divine into human existence in full. That isn't to diminish other faiths. But it is to extol Jesus as the One I worship. The eternal incarnate God who loves me and died for me and rose from the dead.

I can still appreciate Buddha. But asking me to somehow put him on par with Jesus out of some misguided, albeit well-meaning, desire to avoid bigotry is silly.

Re: Reputable Peace

Maria Kirby — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:59:41 -0000

Post Script:
I believe you can be a Buddhist and a Christian in the same way you can be a Jew and a Christian. The question you have to ask yourself is what takes prescedance circumcision or grace? If it's circumcision, you're just a Jew, if it's grace then you're a Christian.

(I don't know if that makes me a bigot, inclusive, or exclusive.)

Re: Reputable Peace

Maria Kirby — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:21:40 -0000

I concur with Michael. Not only did Jesus expect us to believe that he was the Messiah (which "about" who he was) but he expected us to believe that he was raised from the dead -a fact "about" his life, which gives veracity to WHO he was as well as WHAT he preached. He went to great effort to convince the disciples that he had risen from the dead, and that this was something that was in the scriptures about him.

I have great respect for Buddhism. I think Christians can learn a lot from their religious perspective. However, I don't view them as the same path.

Re: Reputable Peace

MichaelCline — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:35:14 -0000

(1) If we hide behind God's omniscience and sovereignty to the point that we never wrestle with this life or its apparent injustices, we do little towards being transformed into Christ-likeness.

(2) I'm not implying that God should literally apologize. You are missing the point. The point is that the U.S. is in just as bad of a spot (or perhaps even worse) as Sodom and Gomorrah. There have actually been studies done on the U.S. when it comes to sexual sins, social injustices, murder, etc... that demonstrate its relationship to those ancient cities. Don't dismiss the point by playing a sovereignty trump card.

Re: Reputable Peace

Tina — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:16:13 -0000

God does not need to apologize for anything...He is God~ We are not....

Re: Reputable Peace

MichaelCline — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:16:04 -0000

"This is what I mean about moving beyond literalism. To believe in Jesus (or buddha) does not mean, and has not always meant, to believe things "about" them, instead it means to trust their path will work."--Progressive Faith

So we are to move "beyond literalism" to what appears to be nothing more than pure pragmatism. I just have a hard time imaging that Jesus, or even Buddha, really desires to see their lives placed at the lowest common denominator just so we can build bridges that "work." The idea that Jesus didn't ask us to believe anything about him is odd to me. Where do you get that from? Absolutely, Jesus did not ask his followers to simply believe without acting or to grasp cognitively divorced from lived passion, but he did demonstrate himself in a way that begged the question: Who am I? Or put in another way, "who do you say that I am?" If Jesus didn't want us to hold a certain view of who he was (i.e. "believe something about him"), wouldn't he have rebuked Peter's answer?

Re: Reputable Peace

joet — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:27:13 -0000

pf, we can always characterise those who are more conservative than we are as 'bigots' and those more progressive as 'liberals'. These labels don't work. If you are defining bigotry as being an exclusive belief that does not accept the validity and truth of another, we're all bigots including you.

Inclusivity can only work if it embraces exclusivity: if you do not embrace my exclusivity then what does it really mean to be inclusive? Is it not another form of bigotry than dictates to others that by having a more 'narrow-minded' view they are being bigots?

I confess that I know little about Buddhism, but to me it is fundamentally different to Christianity in many ways. For me, one of the most obvious differences is the implications of anatta - that the desirability of becoming nothing. In Christianity, the individual is not called to be nothing. Christ came to save sinners, which does not imply that they are worthless, but are worth saving.

Second, it seems to me that Buddhism implies that spiritual perfection is achieved on the mountaintop, through rituals, and the wearing of silly hats.

I think Christ fairly clearly demolished this impression of religion, by showing that whilst mountaintop experiences are sometimes wondrous, the real work is done in the pigsty, at the street corner, the execution ground and kneeling in the dirt. By replacing organised rituals with eating with friends. By showing the silly-hat-wearing brigade that names and titles and impressive clothing is worthless.

As Kierkegaarde said:

"In the magnificent cathedral the honorable and Right Reverend Geheime-General-Ober-Hof-Pradikant, the elect favorite of the fashionable world, appears before an elect company and preaches with emotion upon the text he himself elected: “God has chosen the base things of this world, and the things that are despised” – and nobody laughs."

If the Buddhist has truly given over his selfish desires to the service of the divine through humble sacrificial giving to his neighbour, that is great, he is not far from the kingdom of God. Unfortunately like everyone else, I suspect there are few who are able to break through the binds of religion to do that.

Re: Reputable Peace

markvans — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:50:06 -0000

Hmmm. Right now, it seems like you're deciding who is in and who is out by saying that if someone finds bigotry then they aren't on Jesus' path. I could agree with that, but in this scenario you are the one defining bigotry in a way that no one would have ever understood bigotry in ancient times.

Your understanding of Jesus and his message seems to be porting modern notions into ancient times. Even the idea of abstracting Jesus' message to a selfless path to community seems to be worshipping the path rather than worshipping YHWH...which transcends a way to being the end of the path. My understanding of Jesus is that he understood himself as YHWH in a way that caused Jewish authorities to be complicit in his death.

Re: Reputable Peace

Maria Kirby — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:15:00 -0000

Thank you Kimberly for the clarification. It was a very well written article.

The Buddhism that we are most familiar with is Western Buddhism, which does not have the cultural trappings of Tibetan Buddhism. The Dali Lama has done a good job of distilling out Buddhism's core beliefs. And by doing so has attracted many adherents from disenchanted Christians, who are not comfortable with American cultural baggage in Christianity.

Christianity was very much a popular resistance to the Empire in the Eastern and Soviet Block countries. In fact, the new governments after the fall of the Berlin wall invited many Christian organizations to do work in their countries.

I am concerned with American foreign policy that supports governments based on ethnic unity. One of the strengths of the American system is the "melting pot" phenomenon. As we become more and more a global economy, there is a need to transcend cultural identity to achieve unity. My fear is that by supporting ethnic nationalism we encourage situations where there is an ethnic class system such as in Kuwait or at worse ethnic cleansing such as was in Rwanda.

At the moment, the Dali Lama is an archetype "David" and the Chinese government looks like "Goliath" in comparison. People like to root for the under dog. As an example the Chicago Cubs has a very loyal fan base even though it hasn't won the playoff in a very long time. But the Dali Lama has been working for this moment for a very long time -since he was a young man. What seems to us like a new struggle or a crisis has been going on for quite some time.

What I like about Christianity over Buddhism is the language of forgiveness. A language that is embodied in the person of Jesus, and the actions of the cross and resurrection. I like the community oneness that Buddhism describes, but I think that Christianity incorporates the same oneness without loosing our individuality.

The more I try and become Christ-like the more I am aware of how un-Christian I am. If you wanted to use percentages to describe who's living a Christian life, I would suggest that 0% might be accurate. But thankfully, being a Christian is a process and we don't have to decide who is and isn't a Christian -that's God's job, which if I recall correctly he's not going to do until the end of time.

In the mean time, we can try and be aware of the cultural baggage that we have and how it affects our understanding of the gospel. We can make ourselves open to the cultural interpretations of the gospel that others have in that no one interpretation can completely communicate God's relationship with his creation. And with openness we can have a unity which is a witness of God love to the world.

Re: Reputable Peace

progressive faith — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:49:21 -0000

If you find bigotry, then you didn't find Jesus or follow his path. I hope that isn't the path you've chosen.

The great thing about Buddha is that he doesn't ask anyone to believe anything about him. Jesus didn't ask this either. Unfortunately, other people have twisted his message by assuming following him means believing doctrines bout him. This is what I mean about moving beyond literalism. To believe in Jesus (or buddha) does not mean, and has not always meant, to believe things "about" them, instead it means to trust their path will work. This is not an decision about which path is best, because they both speak about the one true path. They use different metaphors. The buddha talks about anatta or "no self". Jesus talks about a transforming rebirth and demonstrated this through a self-sacrificial death. The apostle paul picked up on this by using the metaphor of "dying to self". These are NOT seperate paths. They are one path with different terms and metaphorical pictures to show the way.

There is no need to see any of these as competitive. It is one common path from selfishness and individuality to selflessness and community. When we get caught worshipping the symbol over the path, then we've lost the way.