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Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:11:31 -0000

Hi Lisa:

Jesus does talk about belief, but the question is what is the content of that belief? As a Christian, I *do* believe in all kinds of things you might find ridiculous, but I wonder if it's a good enough start for a person to just believe this one thing: that the way we treat the "least of these" is the ultimate standard for how we should live our lives. Jesus seems to me to place that at the very top of his list of essential dogmas.

your friend
keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:11:31 -0000

Hi Lisa:

Jesus does talk about belief, but the question is what is the content of that belief? As a Christian, I *do* believe in all kinds of things you might find ridiculous, but I wonder if it's a good enough start for a person to just believe this one thing: that the way we treat the "least of these" is the ultimate standard for how we should live our lives. Jesus seems to me to place that at the very top of his list of essential dogmas.

your friend

keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Lisa — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:20:59 -0000

Being a non-believer, I have often wondered whether someone could follow Christ but not have to accept the superstructure of Christian theology that goes along with it. I don't know what the answer is, obviously, but I do know that Christ himself spoke a whole heck of a lot about belief and routinely talked about how believing, in and of itself, was fairly central to his message. So it seems to me that Christ himself commands belief and thereby does not rise above the dogma that those of us living in a post-Christian world find rather ridiculous. So maybe Christ is mired in the muck that this post seeks to shake off.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Lisa — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:20:59 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:34:18 -0000

Hi Luke:

I have to quibble again:-) I think it might be misleading to distinguish "what to believe" from "how to believe". The Enlightenment does make a claim about what to believe: it demands we believe that "only those beliefs which can be supported by sufficient evidence are epistemically valid (to use a fancy philosophical term:-)." In fact, without circular reasoning you cannot "demonstrate" that reason and evidence is *ever* an effective way to expand our knowledge--the very demonstration would have to use reason or evidence and would thus be assuming its conclusion. But even if you could prove that Reason is one way to get knowledge, you couldn't prove that, say, Muslim religious experience isn't an effective source of knowledge, you couldn't even show that probably it isn't.

Knowledge is really tricky and it depends as much on intuition and judgement as much as it does on evidence and reason. The folks who embraced the Enlightenment didn't recognize that IMO obvious fact.

BTW, I am not sure what evidence there is *against* God (or honestly against Thor or Zeus for that matter). But it's not evidence that makes people reject God. Evidence is beside the point IMO.

your friend

keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:34:18 -0000

Hi Luke:

I have to quibble again:-) I think it might be misleading to distinguish "what to believe" from "how to believe". The Enlightenment does make a claim about what to believe: it demands we believe that "only those beliefs which can be supported by sufficient evidence are epistemically valid (to use a fancy philosophical term:-)." In fact, without circular reasoning you cannot "demonstrate" that reason and evidence is *ever* an effective way to expand our knowledge--the very demonstration would have to use reason or evidence and would thus be assuming its conclusion. But even if you could prove that Reason is one way to get knowledge, you couldn't prove that, say, Muslim religious experience isn't an effective source of knowledge, you couldn't even show that probably it isn't.

Knowledge is really tricky and it depends as much on intuition and judgement as much as it does on evidence and reason. The folks who embraced the Enlightenment didn't recognize that IMO obvious fact.

BTW, I am not sure what evidence there is *against* God (or honestly against Thor or Zeus for that matter). But it's not evidence that makes people reject God. Evidence is beside the point IMO.

your friend
keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Luke — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:35:40 -0000

Keith,

Though it is tangential to Mark's question, let me address your quibble. You are right that Enlightenment thinkers have their own "tradition" (I'm using Alasdair MacIntyre's term; he writes on this issue quite eloquently). If we can call it dogma, then it is a different sort of dogma altogether.

Religious dogma is about what one believes, which is separate from how one believes. Whether one comes to Christian belief through personal experience, induction, deduction, or are simply grandfathered in (as is usually the case), what unites religious people is their dogma of what to believe: an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God created the universe; Christology; atonement; etc.

The Enlightenment dogma is, on the other hand, about how one believes, separate from what one believes. The Enlightenment dogma is too think rationally about what we observe in the real world, not to believe any set of truths for all time. Thus, even if nearly all Enlightenment thinkers assume the universe is eternal, they all change their minds if presented with well-considered, compelling evidence (as happened during the 20th century, with Big Bang theory). And of course, Enlightenment thinkers are not going to accept truths just because they were asserted by ancient persons, whether Paul of Tarsus or Aristotle.

Thus, we might see the central virtue of religion as faith; asserting truths in the face of whatever evidence comes our way. But the central virtue of the Enlightenment (or rather, Descartes' skepticism, which preceded the Enlightenment) is doubt; not asserting truths unless reason and evidence compels one to do so.

Perhaps that is why religion has no problem asserting gods despite so much evidence to the contrary, and why Enlightenment thinkers refuse to assert indemonstrable gods.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Luke — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:35:40 -0000

Keith,

Though it is tangential to Mark's question, let me address your quibble. You are right that Enlightenment thinkers have their own "tradition" (I'm using Alasdair MacIntyre's term; he writes on this issue quite eloquently). If we can call it dogma, then it is a different sort of dogma altogether.

Religious dogma is about what one believes, which is separate from how one believes. Whether one comes to Christian belief through personal experience, induction, deduction, or are simply grandfathered in (as is usually the case), what unites religious people is their dogma of what to believe: an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God created the universe; Christology; atonement; etc.

The Enlightenment dogma is, on the other hand, about how one believes, separate from what one believes. The Enlightenment dogma is too think rationally about what we observe in the real world, not to believe any set of truths for all time. Thus, even if nearly all Enlightenment thinkers assume the universe is eternal, they all change their minds if presented with well-considered, compelling evidence (as happened during the 20th century, with Big Bang theory). And of course, Enlightenment thinkers are not going to accept truths just because they were asserted by ancient persons, whether Paul of Tarsus or Aristotle.

Thus, we might see the central virtue of religion as faith; asserting truths in the face of whatever evidence comes our way. But the central virtue of the Enlightenment (or rather, Descartes' skepticism, which preceded the Enlightenment) is doubt; not asserting truths unless reason and evidence compels one to do so.

Perhaps that is why religion has no problem asserting gods despite so much evidence to the contrary, and why Enlightenment thinkers refuse to assert indemonstrable gods.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

markvans — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:52:25 -0000

Great thoughts everyone!

I want to echo what I've heard several of you say already: theism isn't a necessary starting point for following Jesus--we all come to Jesus from different places in our thinking. And we can enter into a transformative relationship with him without having first believed in some concept of "God" or Monotheism.

The issue, of course, is that Jesus shows us who the Father is. If, for example, 10 years down the road someone is following the radical example of Jesus and hasn't yet been baptized into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then it is a problem. At some point, we need to encounter the Triune reality that is God. I don't think it is an irrational doctrine at all. Without it, Jesus is a moral exemplar and nothing more. This isn't insignificant. Indeed, if there were no God, I'd still follow Jesus. And he'd probably be the closest thing to a god that I'd have in my life.

But, in the end, that isn't enough. I'm not talking about "getting saved"--I'm talking about participating in the divine nature. I'm talking about being filled with the Spirit. We start with Jesus. And Jesus calls us into a divine dance. If we embrace Jesus without embracing his Father and his Spirit, then we are missing out.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

markvans — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:52:25 -0000

Great thoughts everyone!

I want to echo what I've heard several of you say already: theism isn't a necessary starting point for following Jesus--we all come to Jesus from different places in our thinking. And we can enter into a transformative relationship with him without having first believed in some concept of "God" or Monotheism.

The issue, of course, is that Jesus shows us who the Father is. If, for example, 10 years down the road someone is following the radical example of Jesus and hasn't yet been baptized into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then it is a problem. At some point, we need to encounter the Triune reality that is God. I don't think it is an irrational doctrine at all. Without it, Jesus is a moral exemplar and nothing more. This isn't insignificant. Indeed, if there were no God, I'd still follow Jesus. And he'd probably be the closest thing to a god that I'd have in my life.

But, in the end, that isn't enough. I'm not talking about "getting saved"--I'm talking about participating in the divine nature. I'm talking about being filled with the Spirit. We start with Jesus. And Jesus calls us into a divine dance. If we embrace Jesus without embracing his Father and his Spirit, then we are missing out.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:20:02 -0000

Keith,

If we are in disagreement it might be of a "straining the knat" sort... I would guess that our respective biographies cause us to see the issue differently or at least articulate it differently.

Is the agency of the ultimate change God (as I think I read your comments) or the individual (my rhetoric at least and perhaps my theology as well).

I began my journey as a redneck hedonist. Each bit of spiritual growth has been painful as I have given up one hope for another. Surrendering primary loyalty to self-gratification was hard. Surrendering primary loyalty to nation was harder and surrendering primary loyalty to father, mother, son and daughter hardest of all. I find other paths more intuitive than Christianity so it has been hard to remain true to that which I have confessed and believed.

I also work with the mentally ill so I have a lot of reason to believe that bad things happen to everyday people... I see what "can happen" everyday. I wonder, will that guy with a cross on his neck learn from God now that he has to deal with a wife with a traumatic brain injury or bipolar disorder or will he take the first opportunity to bail on her so he can return to his comfortable suburban "reality." He is faced with a choice whether he realizes it or not... he can choose God's call to steadfast love or he can choose comfort... he may not realize he is doubting the existence of God but he does seem to me to be making a choice about the reality of the God he reads about in the Bible. We make choices everyday about the existence of God, only most the time we do not realize it.

I do not deny that God acts to give knowledge. I would say that I am the recipient of that knowledge. It has only been my experience that with that gift comes converting and that can be very hard, that entails a choice. Someday I do think Bob will have to make a choice... and probably a lot of choices over a lot of days.

Perhaps his experience will be different than mine... which is why it is good that Bob should have exposure to a community of faith where there are many voices teaching and correcting one another.

Again... it seems to be a matter of knats.

Peace

Courage Joy

Daniel

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:20:02 -0000

Keith,

If we are in disagreement it might be of a "straining the knat" sort... I would guess that our respective biographies cause us to see the issue differently or at least articulate it differently.

Is the agency of the ultimate change God (as I think I read your comments) or the individual (my rhetoric at least and perhaps my theology as well).

I began my journey as a redneck hedonist. Each bit of spiritual growth has been painful as I have given up one hope for another. Surrendering primary loyalty to self-gratification was hard. Surrendering primary loyalty to nation was harder and surrendering primary loyalty to father, mother, son and daughter hardest of all. I find other paths more intuitive than Christianity so it has been hard to remain true to that which I have confessed and believed.

I also work with the mentally ill so I have a lot of reason to believe that bad things happen to everyday people... I see what "can happen" everyday. I wonder, will that guy with a cross on his neck learn from God now that he has to deal with a wife with a traumatic brain injury or bipolar disorder or will he take the first opportunity to bail on her so he can return to his comfortable suburban "reality." He is faced with a choice whether he realizes it or not... he can choose God's call to steadfast love or he can choose comfort... he may not realize he is doubting the existence of God but he does seem to me to be making a choice about the reality of the God he reads about in the Bible. We make choices everyday about the existence of God, only most the time we do not realize it.

I do not deny that God acts to give knowledge. I would say that I am the recipient of that knowledge. It has only been my experience that with that gift comes converting and that can be very hard, that entails a choice. Someday I do think Bob will have to make a choice... and probably a lot of choices over a lot of days.

Perhaps his experience will be different than mine... which is why it is good that Bob should have exposure to a community of faith where there are many voices teaching and correcting one another.

Again... it seems to be a matter of knats.
Peace
Courage Joy
Daniel

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:42:50 -0000

Hi Daniel:

I think we may be really in agreement here. On the 0ther hand, we might be as far apart as possible:-) Let me try to clarify. I agree with you about the necessity of spiritual growth, so I fully expect that the hypothetical Christian atheist Bob will eventually come to see the full truth--he will begin to see that God is real. But the way I read what you wrote,, you think that Bob will eventually encounter a moment of truth, where he will be faced with accepting or rejecting the supernatural claims of Christianity and that this is the decisive part of his spiritual life. That's the idea I am questioning. Bob feels drawn to the the very things Christ said he should be drawn to and without doubt*would* embrace God if he thought God was real. The only barrier between Bob and a deep relationship with God is his lack of knowledge. I wonder--I actually assume--that if this were the case, God would in due time grant Bob the gift of that knowledge. While for some--for me as an example--knowing that God is real right now helps me walk the way of Christ, I wonder if there are not others who wouldn't need this knowledge until the end.

I am just wondering, you know:-)

your friend

Keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:42:50 -0000

Hi Daniel:

I think we may be really in agreement here. On the 0ther hand, we might be as far apart as possible:-) Let me try to clarify. I agree with you about the necessity of spiritual growth, so I fully expect that the hypothetical Christian atheist Bob will eventually come to see the full truth--he will begin to see that God is real. But the way I read what you wrote,, you think that Bob will eventually encounter a moment of truth, where he will be faced with accepting or rejecting the supernatural claims of Christianity and that this is the decisive part of his spiritual life. That's the idea I am questioning. Bob feels drawn to the the very things Christ said he should be drawn to and without doubt*would* embrace God if he thought God was real. The only barrier between Bob and a deep relationship with God is his lack of knowledge. I wonder--I actually assume--that if this were the case, God would in due time grant Bob the gift of that knowledge. While for some--for me as an example--knowing that God is real right now helps me walk the way of Christ, I wonder if there are not others who wouldn't need this knowledge until the end.

I am just wondering, you know:-)

your friend
Keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Beyond Words — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:14:15 -0000

I think our impoverished understanding of the Trinity contributes to this confusion. Take Bob, for example. Is Bob merely "following " Jesus or is Bob worshiping and following Jesus? If he is both worshipping Jesus and following him, the Spirit is at work in Bob and he is experiencing God the Father. I don't think that's classic theism, but then, I don't think theism really captures the Trinity.

Worshipping Jesus presupposes the trinitarian nature of God and therefore, transcends the problem of theism. It's not a belief per se, but an act of worship.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Beyond Words — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:14:15 -0000

Worshipping Jesus presupposes the trinitarian nature of God and therefore, transcends the problem of theism. It's not a belief per se, but an act of worship.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:36:21 -0000

Keith,

Nice to meet you.

I would agree that correct theological belief is not necessary to following Jesus, none of us is 100% correct.

I do, however, believe that no individual is stagnant either in belief or the development of character. Eventually our hypothetical pagan or atheist will be faced with a degree of cognitive dissonance that they will be forced, cognitively or behaviorally, to choose between two masters, so to speak. If the individual is making a conscious effort to follow Jesus, he or she will discover through experience, that they "hate the one and love the other.

I don't know that the example of a dead brother one still loves is analogous to the dilemna faced by the atheistic oriented disciple because the brother did exist as opposed to a God one believes never existed. It is more like an imaginary construct of the perfect friend or spouse. Treating love as a well spring of action and not a dreamer's emotion (James 2, 1 John 5) will one suffer persecution or die (Matthew 5) for an imaginary construct? Because individuals are more complex than our simple labels one might but I would wonder if our diagnosis of their world view was detailed enough or, baring that, if they were acting rationally.

I should add as a disclaimer that I would distinguish between the earnest disciple who is "a little iffy" from the one who denies the existence of God. Not to self promote but I hope to deal (indirectly) with the latter on my own blog by the end of next week.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:36:21 -0000

Keith,

Nice to meet you.

I would agree that correct theological belief is not necessary to following Jesus, none of us is 100% correct.

I do, however, believe that no individual is stagnant either in belief or the development of character. Eventually our hypothetical pagan or atheist will be faced with a degree of cognitive dissonance that they will be forced, cognitively or behaviorally, to choose between two masters, so to speak. If the individual is making a conscious effort to follow Jesus, he or she will discover through experience, that they "hate the one and love the other.

I don't know that the example of a dead brother one still loves is analogous to the dilemna faced by the atheistic oriented disciple because the brother did exist as opposed to a God one believes never existed. It is more like an imaginary construct of the perfect friend or spouse. Treating love as a well spring of action and not a dreamer's emotion (James 2, 1 John 5) will one suffer persecution or die (Matthew 5) for an imaginary construct? Because individuals are more complex than our simple labels one might but I would wonder if our diagnosis of their world view was detailed enough or, baring that, if they were acting rationally.

I should add as a disclaimer that I would distinguish between the earnest disciple who is "a little iffy" from the one who denies the existence of God. Not to self promote but I hope to deal (indirectly) with the latter on my own blog by the end of next week.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:13:05 -0000

Hi Daniel:

you wrote: "Why is Bob following Jesus? Because Jesus is a nice guy or perhaps he is a good example of “the way” as understood in taoism or maybe he just had a vision while on some acid that told him he should follow Jesus. In and of itself it doesn’t matter but at some point that original motivation is going to run out of steam and Bob is going to be faced with a choice, continue to follow Jesus or surrender to other loyalties. Perhaps that challenge will come when Bob reads the Revelation of John and the future judgment comes into view? Or when Jesus starts talking all monotheistic or when other aspects of his lifestyle (not just the uncool things like anger or violence) come under divine critique.".

Since Bob is hypothetical, I think I'll tell you why Bob is following Christ: when he reads things like the Sermon on the Mount it seems compelling to him. I say this with a certain amount of experience because when I was much younger I was just like Bob. I was an atheist, but when the dudes from Gideons passed out the free New Testaments I grabbed one and felt the exact thing Bob felt wrt the Sermon. I was *indeed* drawn to Jesus the very nice guy, but the Sermon on the Mount is a little more radical than can be captured by "nice guy". But I didn't believe in the supernatural.

I have since come to believe in the supernatural and to see Jesus as Lord, the 2nd person of the Trinity, the one "by [who] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him... [who] is before all things, and in [whom] all things hold together". But I wonder why that is important? I'm not sure it's because unless you hold the right theological opinions you aren't saved. Christ said that the entire law is summed up by (a) loving God with all you've got and (b) loving your neighbor as yourself. I wonder if one can love God while not believing God is real? It doesn't seem impossible to me. If I were an atheist I would think my dead brother was dead and gone and no longer existed, but still I would love him. IN Matthew 25, Jesus gave no hint that having the right belief about the supernatural was a requisite for being grouped with his sheep. Maybe right theology is a gift that God gives to those who follow him, not the other way around.

your friend

keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:13:05 -0000

Hi Daniel:

you wrote: "Why is Bob following Jesus? Because Jesus is a nice guy or perhaps he is a good example of “the way” as understood in taoism or maybe he just had a vision while on some acid that told him he should follow Jesus. In and of itself it doesn’t matter but at some point that original motivation is going to run out of steam and Bob is going to be faced with a choice, continue to follow Jesus or surrender to other loyalties. Perhaps that challenge will come when Bob reads the Revelation of John and the future judgment comes into view? Or when Jesus starts talking all monotheistic or when other aspects of his lifestyle (not just the uncool things like anger or violence) come under divine critique.".

Since Bob is hypothetical, I think I'll tell you why Bob is following Christ: when he reads things like the Sermon on the Mount it seems compelling to him. I say this with a certain amount of experience because when I was much younger I was just like Bob. I was an atheist, but when the dudes from Gideons passed out the free New Testaments I grabbed one and felt the exact thing Bob felt wrt the Sermon. I was *indeed* drawn to Jesus the very nice guy, but the Sermon on the Mount is a little more radical than can be captured by "nice guy". But I didn't believe in the supernatural.

I have since come to believe in the supernatural and to see Jesus as Lord, the 2nd person of the Trinity, the one "by [who] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him... [who] is before all things, and in [whom] all things hold together". But I wonder why that is important? I'm not sure it's because unless you hold the right theological opinions you aren't saved. Christ said that the entire law is summed up by (a) loving God with all you've got and (b) loving your neighbor as yourself. I wonder if one can love God while not believing God is real? It doesn't seem impossible to me. If I were an atheist I would think my dead brother was dead and gone and no longer existed, but still I would love him. IN Matthew 25, Jesus gave no hint that having the right belief about the supernatural was a requisite for being grouped with his sheep. Maybe right theology is a gift that God gives to those who follow him, not the other way around.

your friend
keith

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:26:36 -0000

Keith,

Good question, let me see if I can articulate my position.

I am not denying that one can begin a journey "anywhere" but about our hypothetic atheist (lets call him Bob) I would have to ask a couple of questions.

Why is Bob following Jesus? Because Jesus is a nice guy or perhaps he is a good example of "the way" as understood in taoism or maybe he just had a vision while on some acid that told him he should follow Jesus. In and of itself it doesn't matter but at some point that original motivation is going to run out of steam and Bob is going to be faced with a choice, continue to follow Jesus or surrender to other loyalties. Perhaps that challenge will come when Bob reads the Revelation of John and the future judgment comes into view? Or when Jesus starts talking all monotheistic or when other aspects of his lifestyle (not just the uncool things like anger or violence) come under divine critique.

At that moment we begin to find out if Bob has really been following Jesus or just using Jesus as an example or ideal for some values that he brought to and found justification for in Jesus. There are millions of professing Christians who leave Jesus on the street corner whenever his call to single minded loyalty conflicts with something they want to do also. There are many theists who "use" Jesus to justify certain values and then ignore him when he asks them to surrender others. They are in the same boat as Bob, neither closer to nor farther away from the Kingdom of God.

This is why some Anabaptists have attempted to hang on to some form of church discipline, we all the insights of one another. We are all, to one extent or another, "hairy legged souls lost out in sin." I think a good measure of when someone, regardless of where they began their journey, is ready for baptism is their willingness to give and receive instruction from the local congregation; knowing that the Bible is the authority b which we teach, exhort and correct one another.

I can't say if Bob is "saved" or not so it is not a question I should try to answer. Neither can I really "know" how close he is to the Kingdom. He could be a son of Thunder or a Judas I. as far as I can tell. The questions I do think we can address are those of how our congregations will function as communities seeking to follow Jesus in the world today and that is why I think the question of baptism is relevant.

peace,

courage,

joy,

Daniel

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Daniel — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:26:36 -0000

Keith,

Good question, let me see if I can articulate my position.

I am not denying that one can begin a journey "anywhere" but about our hypothetic atheist (lets call him Bob) I would have to ask a couple of questions.

Why is Bob following Jesus? Because Jesus is a nice guy or perhaps he is a good example of "the way" as understood in taoism or maybe he just had a vision while on some acid that told him he should follow Jesus. In and of itself it doesn't matter but at some point that original motivation is going to run out of steam and Bob is going to be faced with a choice, continue to follow Jesus or surrender to other loyalties. Perhaps that challenge will come when Bob reads the Revelation of John and the future judgment comes into view? Or when Jesus starts talking all monotheistic or when other aspects of his lifestyle (not just the uncool things like anger or violence) come under divine critique.

At that moment we begin to find out if Bob has really been following Jesus or just using Jesus as an example or ideal for some values that he brought to and found justification for in Jesus. There are millions of professing Christians who leave Jesus on the street corner whenever his call to single minded loyalty conflicts with something they want to do also. There are many theists who "use" Jesus to justify certain values and then ignore him when he asks them to surrender others. They are in the same boat as Bob, neither closer to nor farther away from the Kingdom of God.

This is why some Anabaptists have attempted to hang on to some form of church discipline, we all the insights of one another. We are all, to one extent or another, "hairy legged souls lost out in sin." I think a good measure of when someone, regardless of where they began their journey, is ready for baptism is their willingness to give and receive instruction from the local congregation; knowing that the Bible is the authority b which we teach, exhort and correct one another.

I can't say if Bob is "saved" or not so it is not a question I should try to answer. Neither can I really "know" how close he is to the Kingdom. He could be a son of Thunder or a Judas I. as far as I can tell. The questions I do think we can address are those of how our congregations will function as communities seeking to follow Jesus in the world today and that is why I think the question of baptism is relevant.

peace,
courage,
joy,
Daniel

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jonas Lundström — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:30:17 -0000

Keith, I agree, I think. If I am allowed to keep on bringing in the baptism-question, I think that your atheist still needs baptism and becoming a part of a christian group of followers, a church. But your case might also put a question mark after the baptism of lots of "christians". At this point, I am definitely drawn to anabaptism, I think that "baptism" might not be valid, and might need to be repaired or completed. I am not sure I believe in the total rejection of baptism of children or half-believing adults, but I definitely believe that there is a need to repair or make the baptism of lots of "christians" complete, through some useful ritual. (In our small church, we have handed over one of the keys to our house to a brother or sister in the church, as a way of making visible the meaning of baptism.) Baptism should be administered to people who really want to leave the world and follow Jesus, no matter the cost.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jonas Lundström — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:30:17 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

keith johnson — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:23:55 -0000

Hi Daniel:

Here's what I was thinking of: suppose an atheist find himself drawn to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, and he sincerely tries to put it into practice. He is aware when he judges others, when he is angry etc., in other words he notices his own sin. He find himself trying to forgive his enemies and even hope for good things to happen to his enemies. He is skeptical of the supernatural, but he finds that what Jesus taught has a pull on him. Isn't he closer to the Way than is the Christian who goes to church every time the door is open but sees himself as more righteous than those sinful unbelievers out there?

your friend
Keith