I agree that we tend to treat the gurus like saints, we're glad they're there, but wouldn't want to be one...
I think abstraction has to be linked to renewal of practice in a different context.
Oh and if you want to write a RIP dedication post to my blog, I, as one who is by no means close to guru status, wouldn't mind it too much. ;)
dlw
dlw
· 2 years ago
Well, I think i'd share this post with Shane.
I agree that we tend to treat the gurus like saints, we're glad they're there, but wouldn't want to be one...
I think abstraction has to be linked to renewal of practice in a different context.
Oh and if you want to write a RIP dedication post to my blog, I, as one who is by no means close to guru status, wouldn't mind it too much. ;)
dlw
drew moser
· 2 years ago
Great post. My thoughts exactly...For those who are hoping that a lil' Shane will rub off on you...sorry: bad theology. See Christ in Him, and be inspired to go and do likewise. Thanks for the reminder Mark.
drew moser
· 2 years ago
Great post. My thoughts exactly...For those who are hoping that a lil' Shane will rub off on you...sorry: bad theology. See Christ in Him, and be inspired to go and do likewise. Thanks for the reminder Mark.
Brother Maynard
· 2 years ago
Uncanny. I used this example a week or so ago in a conversation, "Christianizing" the Zen saying. Well done, excellent post.
Brother Maynard
· 2 years ago
Uncanny. I used this example a week or so ago in a conversation, "Christianizing" the Zen saying. Well done, excellent post.
Bill Kinnon
· 2 years ago
Very well said. Thanks for the challenge. Much needed.
Bill Kinnon
· 2 years ago
Very well said. Thanks for the challenge. Much needed.
Ariah Fine
· 2 years ago
Well said. I think you hit in on the head, and I don't think shane would disagree with you. I was writing a post to go up on Friday linking to his NPR spot, and I'm still gonna do it, but I'm gonna include a snippet from your post too if you don't mind.
peace.
Ariah Fine
· 2 years ago
Well said. I think you hit in on the head, and I don't think shane would disagree with you. I was writing a post to go up on Friday linking to his NPR spot, and I'm still gonna do it, but I'm gonna include a snippet from your post too if you don't mind.
peace.
Rev. Joe
· 2 years ago
I appreciated your message until you got lost in your opinions on Shane. I didn't understand your defensive repetitions in this area. Did you get caught up in your own hero worship struggles?
Rev. Joe
· 2 years ago
I appreciated your message until you got lost in your opinions on Shane. I didn't understand your defensive repetitions in this area. Did you get caught up in your own hero worship struggles?
markvans
· 2 years ago
Perhaps, but not likely. This post came out of my reflections about how folks have responded to his book and message.
I could have written this post generically, I suppose. But it seems to me that Shane Claiborne is the perfect example of this. He is the person I am most aware of that people are exalting as a living saint, while at the same time exactly the sort of person who is encouraging folks to go and do likewise. He is the 21st century equivalent to Dorothy Day or Mother Theresa for young evangelicals. Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa were likewise often celebrated but rarely imitated.
I'm not sure where you see much defensiveness, nor do I see much repetition. Perhaps you missed my whole point. Or perhaps I struck a nerve?
markvans
· 2 years ago
Perhaps, but not likely. This post came out of my reflections about how folks have responded to his book and message.
I could have written this post generically, I suppose. But it seems to me that Shane Claiborne is the perfect example of this. He is the person I am most aware of that people are exalting as a living saint, while at the same time exactly the sort of person who is encouraging folks to go and do likewise. He is the 21st century equivalent to Dorothy Day or Mother Theresa for young evangelicals. Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa were likewise often celebrated but rarely imitated.
I'm not sure where you see much defensiveness, nor do I see much repetition. Perhaps you missed my whole point. Or perhaps I struck a nerve?
Rev. Joe
· 2 years ago
Thanks. My perspective is among the mainliners who live for dead heroes of the 16th century...as if nothing worthwhile has been written beyond the 18th century. I seek an emergent conversation in the midst of "dead poets". I deeply appreciate you and many others willing to speak of the new reformation...the challenge is to avoid idolatry while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am new to this conversation and just discovered Shane and his writings; I haven’t arrived at that hero place...yet.
Rev. Joe
· 2 years ago
Thanks. My perspective is among the mainliners who live for dead heroes of the 16th century...as if nothing worthwhile has been written beyond the 18th century. I seek an emergent conversation in the midst of "dead poets". I deeply appreciate you and many others willing to speak of the new reformation...the challenge is to avoid idolatry while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am new to this conversation and just discovered Shane and his writings; I haven’t arrived at that hero place...yet.
Jordan
· 2 years ago
Let my little brain try and shed some sort of input.
I want to give Shane's book to random people. I personally do not want to be an admirer of Shane, but a follower of Jesus.
However, I am aware that giving this book to random people could just cause them to admire Shane and The Simple Way, and not not imitate Jesus. I don't want that.
It's a process though - changing lives-, right? a process I'm engaging in, and more or less beginning.
I was thinking of how I could share this book with strangers, and although the "Sainthood" of Shane is probably inevitable for some, I think reading this post has given me a good idea of how to try and avoid the inevitable. That's an oxymoron, huh?
I have zero credibility. I am nothing. Maybe harsh...but I'm trying to love Jesus, let him love me, and love others.
I quit my job; I am spoiled.
- Jordan
Jordan
· 2 years ago
Let my little brain try and shed some sort of input.
I want to give Shane's book to random people. I personally do not want to be an admirer of Shane, but a follower of Jesus.
However, I am aware that giving this book to random people could just cause them to admire Shane and The Simple Way, and not not imitate Jesus. I don't want that.
It's a process though - changing lives-, right? a process I'm engaging in, and more or less beginning.
I was thinking of how I could share this book with strangers, and although the "Sainthood" of Shane is probably inevitable for some, I think reading this post has given me a good idea of how to try and avoid the inevitable. That's an oxymoron, huh?
I have zero credibility. I am nothing. Maybe harsh...but I'm trying to love Jesus, let him love me, and love others.
I quit my job; I am spoiled.
- Jordan
tatiana
· 2 years ago
I think I would disagree with you saying that most people are spending more time admiring Shane than imitating him.
We have had scores of visitors lately to my community, and it seems like they are doing a pretty good job of imitating Shane and the simple way (or at least what they know of it through his book and the internet) - driving around in veggie oil vehicles, growing gardens, eating organic food, making their own clothes. I don't think these are very difficult things to imitate, so it doesn't seem like much of a challenge.
Some of Shane's readers are even "imitating" him in spending time with poor people, moving into racially different and/or poverty-stricken neighborhoods, seeking social justice, etc.
I see a lot of that happening, but all of those things can be done just as much for self-seeking reasons as for self-sacrificing ones. I'm not sure we can have any idea yet what sorts of motives are behind all of this. It might be people stirred by the Holy Spirit to life a deeper discipleship. Or it might be a bunch of people riled up about something that has become very hip.
We will see. -tatiana : )
tatiana
· 2 years ago
I think I would disagree with you saying that most people are spending more time admiring Shane than imitating him.
We have had scores of visitors lately to my community, and it seems like they are doing a pretty good job of imitating Shane and the simple way (or at least what they know of it through his book and the internet) - driving around in veggie oil vehicles, growing gardens, eating organic food, making their own clothes. I don't think these are very difficult things to imitate, so it doesn't seem like much of a challenge.
Some of Shane's readers are even "imitating" him in spending time with poor people, moving into racially different and/or poverty-stricken neighborhoods, seeking social justice, etc.
I see a lot of that happening, but all of those things can be done just as much for self-seeking reasons as for self-sacrificing ones. I'm not sure we can have any idea yet what sorts of motives are behind all of this. It might be people stirred by the Holy Spirit to life a deeper discipleship. Or it might be a bunch of people riled up about something that has become very hip.
We will see. -tatiana : )
amy
· 2 years ago
i don't know shane, but i would love to see more Christ-like people be loved and imitated. i'd love to see more Christ-like people in general.
i understand your point about how people are too often "worshipped" though. that's true. sometimes i think it even extends to worshipping images of Jesus and the symbol of the cross and stuff like that too. sometimes we gaze at an artist's rendering of Jesus instead of just closing our eyes and being with our Heavenly Father himself.
i'm curious about the "grumpy tone." i wonder where that comes from.
i saw a tv show today where a preacher said "frustration = works of the flesh." reflecting on your tone reminded me of that.
hmm.. that info comes in handy today for me... (it's been a long frustrating day)
neomonastic... curious term... i'll have to look it up...
thanks for the food for thought, mark.
amy
· 2 years ago
i don't know shane, but i would love to see more Christ-like people be loved and imitated. i'd love to see more Christ-like people in general.
i understand your point about how people are too often "worshipped" though. that's true. sometimes i think it even extends to worshipping images of Jesus and the symbol of the cross and stuff like that too. sometimes we gaze at an artist's rendering of Jesus instead of just closing our eyes and being with our Heavenly Father himself.
i'm curious about the "grumpy tone." i wonder where that comes from.
i saw a tv show today where a preacher said "frustration = works of the flesh." reflecting on your tone reminded me of that.
hmm.. that info comes in handy today for me... (it's been a long frustrating day)
neomonastic... curious term... i'll have to look it up...
thanks for the food for thought, mark.
markvans
· 2 years ago
I don't remember what sparked the grumpy reasons for this post. But it probably flowed out of my frustration with the way in which people can extol certain ideas and ideals without feeling like they need to change as a result. And while frustration can sometimes be a work of the flesh, I would be careful to categorize it as such. Frustration is the first step in challenging the status quo. Without frustration there can be no change.
I'm not frustrated with Shane, by the way. I wish everyone in the church were like him. He is an exemplar for a very good reason. My point is simply this: exemplars are to be emulated, not venerated.
markvans
· 2 years ago
I don't remember what sparked the grumpy reasons for this post. But it probably flowed out of my frustration with the way in which people can extol certain ideas and ideals without feeling like they need to change as a result. And while frustration can sometimes be a work of the flesh, I would be careful to categorize it as such. Frustration is the first step in challenging the status quo. Without frustration there can be no change.
I'm not frustrated with Shane, by the way. I wish everyone in the church were like him. He is an exemplar for a very good reason. My point is simply this: exemplars are to be emulated, not venerated.
amy
· 2 years ago
"my frustration with the way in which people...." you could fill in the blank with so many things there.
but i hear you - if you're plugged in to this world at all, then you're bound to be frustrated sometimes.
the notion of prolonged frustration being out of sync with God's will for my life feels true to me. it helped me today in dealing with my own frustrations, so i thought i'd pass it on. your caution is duly noted, however.
i would guess most people are trying to live up to their ideals. for the most part, people are doing the best they can.
it's really hard to live up to a Christ life. that's why so many of us admire it so much when we see others able to do it. it gives us hope.
(ps -thanks for responding to my post.)
amy
· 2 years ago
"my frustration with the way in which people...." you could fill in the blank with so many things there.
but i hear you - if you're plugged in to this world at all, then you're bound to be frustrated sometimes.
the notion of prolonged frustration being out of sync with God's will for my life feels true to me. it helped me today in dealing with my own frustrations, so i thought i'd pass it on. your caution is duly noted, however.
i would guess most people are trying to live up to their ideals. for the most part, people are doing the best they can.
it's really hard to live up to a Christ life. that's why so many of us admire it so much when we see others able to do it. it gives us hope.
(ps -thanks for responding to my post.)
markvans
· 2 years ago
Fair enough.
markvans
· 2 years ago
Fair enough.
amy
· 2 years ago
pps... maybe frustration is a pre-requisite for changing ourselves.
amy
· 2 years ago
pps... maybe frustration is a pre-requisite for changing ourselves.
All Comments
I agree that we tend to treat the gurus like saints, we're glad they're there, but wouldn't want to be one...
I think abstraction has to be linked to renewal of practice in a different context.
Oh and if you want to write a RIP dedication post to my blog, I, as one who is by no means close to guru status, wouldn't mind it too much. ;)
dlw
I agree that we tend to treat the gurus like saints, we're glad they're there, but wouldn't want to be one...
I think abstraction has to be linked to renewal of practice in a different context.
Oh and if you want to write a RIP dedication post to my blog, I, as one who is by no means close to guru status, wouldn't mind it too much. ;)
dlw
peace.
peace.
I could have written this post generically, I suppose. But it seems to me that Shane Claiborne is the perfect example of this. He is the person I am most aware of that people are exalting as a living saint, while at the same time exactly the sort of person who is encouraging folks to go and do likewise. He is the 21st century equivalent to Dorothy Day or Mother Theresa for young evangelicals. Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa were likewise often celebrated but rarely imitated.
I'm not sure where you see much defensiveness, nor do I see much repetition. Perhaps you missed my whole point. Or perhaps I struck a nerve?
I could have written this post generically, I suppose. But it seems to me that Shane Claiborne is the perfect example of this. He is the person I am most aware of that people are exalting as a living saint, while at the same time exactly the sort of person who is encouraging folks to go and do likewise. He is the 21st century equivalent to Dorothy Day or Mother Theresa for young evangelicals. Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa were likewise often celebrated but rarely imitated.
I'm not sure where you see much defensiveness, nor do I see much repetition. Perhaps you missed my whole point. Or perhaps I struck a nerve?
I want to give Shane's book to random people. I personally do not want to be an admirer of Shane, but a follower of Jesus.
However, I am aware that giving this book to random people could just cause them to admire Shane and The Simple Way, and not not imitate Jesus. I don't want that.
It's a process though - changing lives-, right? a process I'm engaging in, and more or less beginning.
I was thinking of how I could share this book with strangers, and although the "Sainthood" of Shane is probably inevitable for some, I think reading this post has given me a good idea of how to try and avoid the inevitable. That's an oxymoron, huh?
I have zero credibility. I am nothing. Maybe harsh...but I'm trying to love Jesus, let him love me, and love others.
I quit my job; I am spoiled.
- Jordan
I want to give Shane's book to random people. I personally do not want to be an admirer of Shane, but a follower of Jesus.
However, I am aware that giving this book to random people could just cause them to admire Shane and The Simple Way, and not not imitate Jesus. I don't want that.
It's a process though - changing lives-, right? a process I'm engaging in, and more or less beginning.
I was thinking of how I could share this book with strangers, and although the "Sainthood" of Shane is probably inevitable for some, I think reading this post has given me a good idea of how to try and avoid the inevitable. That's an oxymoron, huh?
I have zero credibility. I am nothing. Maybe harsh...but I'm trying to love Jesus, let him love me, and love others.
I quit my job; I am spoiled.
- Jordan
We have had scores of visitors lately to my community, and it seems like they are doing a pretty good job of imitating Shane and the simple way (or at least what they know of it through his book and the internet) - driving around in veggie oil vehicles, growing gardens, eating organic food, making their own clothes. I don't think these are very difficult things to imitate, so it doesn't seem like much of a challenge.
Some of Shane's readers are even "imitating" him in spending time with poor people, moving into racially different and/or poverty-stricken neighborhoods, seeking social justice, etc.
I see a lot of that happening, but all of those things can be done just as much for self-seeking reasons as for self-sacrificing ones. I'm not sure we can have any idea yet what sorts of motives are behind all of this. It might be people stirred by the Holy Spirit to life a deeper discipleship. Or it might be a bunch of people riled up about something that has become very hip.
We will see.
-tatiana : )
We have had scores of visitors lately to my community, and it seems like they are doing a pretty good job of imitating Shane and the simple way (or at least what they know of it through his book and the internet) - driving around in veggie oil vehicles, growing gardens, eating organic food, making their own clothes. I don't think these are very difficult things to imitate, so it doesn't seem like much of a challenge.
Some of Shane's readers are even "imitating" him in spending time with poor people, moving into racially different and/or poverty-stricken neighborhoods, seeking social justice, etc.
I see a lot of that happening, but all of those things can be done just as much for self-seeking reasons as for self-sacrificing ones. I'm not sure we can have any idea yet what sorts of motives are behind all of this. It might be people stirred by the Holy Spirit to life a deeper discipleship. Or it might be a bunch of people riled up about something that has become very hip.
We will see.
-tatiana : )
i understand your point about how people are too often "worshipped" though. that's true. sometimes i think it even extends to worshipping images of Jesus and the symbol of the cross and stuff like that too. sometimes we gaze at an artist's rendering of Jesus instead of just closing our eyes and being with our Heavenly Father himself.
i'm curious about the "grumpy tone." i wonder where that comes from.
i saw a tv show today where a preacher said "frustration = works of the flesh." reflecting on your tone reminded me of that.
hmm.. that info comes in handy today for me... (it's been a long frustrating day)
neomonastic... curious term... i'll have to look it up...
thanks for the food for thought, mark.
i understand your point about how people are too often "worshipped" though. that's true. sometimes i think it even extends to worshipping images of Jesus and the symbol of the cross and stuff like that too. sometimes we gaze at an artist's rendering of Jesus instead of just closing our eyes and being with our Heavenly Father himself.
i'm curious about the "grumpy tone." i wonder where that comes from.
i saw a tv show today where a preacher said "frustration = works of the flesh." reflecting on your tone reminded me of that.
hmm.. that info comes in handy today for me... (it's been a long frustrating day)
neomonastic... curious term... i'll have to look it up...
thanks for the food for thought, mark.
I'm not frustrated with Shane, by the way. I wish everyone in the church were like him. He is an exemplar for a very good reason. My point is simply this: exemplars are to be emulated, not venerated.
I'm not frustrated with Shane, by the way. I wish everyone in the church were like him. He is an exemplar for a very good reason. My point is simply this: exemplars are to be emulated, not venerated.
you could fill in the blank with so many things there.
but i hear you - if you're plugged in to this world at all, then you're bound to be frustrated sometimes.
the notion of prolonged frustration being out of sync with God's will for my life feels true to me. it helped me today in dealing with my own frustrations, so i thought i'd pass it on. your caution is duly noted, however.
i would guess most people are trying to live up to their ideals. for the most part, people are doing the best they can.
it's really hard to live up to a Christ life. that's why so many of us admire it so much when we see others able to do it. it gives us hope.
(ps -thanks for responding to my post.)
you could fill in the blank with so many things there.
but i hear you - if you're plugged in to this world at all, then you're bound to be frustrated sometimes.
the notion of prolonged frustration being out of sync with God's will for my life feels true to me. it helped me today in dealing with my own frustrations, so i thought i'd pass it on. your caution is duly noted, however.
i would guess most people are trying to live up to their ideals. for the most part, people are doing the best they can.
it's really hard to live up to a Christ life. that's why so many of us admire it so much when we see others able to do it. it gives us hope.
(ps -thanks for responding to my post.)