Thanks for the well articulated post. I have always appreciated your approach to "charismata".
Jesse Gavin
· 2 years ago
Thanks for the well articulated post. I have always appreciated your approach to "charismata".
ron cole
· 2 years ago
Mark, great thoughts...I agree with everything you've said in your satements. In the pentecostal community I find myself, it frustrates me as to how they almost claim ownership of the " Charismata." Almost like a power box they can plug and play when ever needed. If we really believe the Spirit fills each one of us, this cloud that holds, binds, unifies the community...like mortar holding the living stones, the community together...it owns us. From the simpliest, to the youngest, to the most foolish, to the oldest...the gift is there always. Oh that we would be communities again filled with children like faith, stepping out in faith, encouraging each other...playing with our gifts, taking tiny steps. Having grace, that if the person stumbles and falls, the community would pick them up dust them off...encourage them to try again. Another thought is that sometimes the gift you recieve is not " a life time gift ", that maybe there is a best before date...he gives it to you for a season...and then gives you something else. The wind blows when and where it wants...its up to the community to remain sensitive to it...and just respond. And the inventory list does get to me, like a shopping list...most want the most expensive, and most impressive. You pick it, the spiritual giants of the community lay hands on you, say the words...you check out with your gift. Again, I think the key is to remain sensitive, and humbly accept and use what ever the Spirit gives. Anyways, great thoughts Mark...it is slowly becoming a word we don't hear much about anymore...and sadly it is the thing the church needs to be most conscious of. This also leads into the conversation of spiritual warfare...is it a reality in the life of the church anymore?
ron cole
· 2 years ago
Mark, great thoughts...I agree with everything you've said in your satements. In the pentecostal community I find myself, it frustrates me as to how they almost claim ownership of the " Charismata." Almost like a power box they can plug and play when ever needed. If we really believe the Spirit fills each one of us, this cloud that holds, binds, unifies the community...like mortar holding the living stones, the community together...it owns us. From the simpliest, to the youngest, to the most foolish, to the oldest...the gift is there always. Oh that we would be communities again filled with children like faith, stepping out in faith, encouraging each other...playing with our gifts, taking tiny steps. Having grace, that if the person stumbles and falls, the community would pick them up dust them off...encourage them to try again. Another thought is that sometimes the gift you recieve is not " a life time gift ", that maybe there is a best before date...he gives it to you for a season...and then gives you something else. The wind blows when and where it wants...its up to the community to remain sensitive to it...and just respond. And the inventory list does get to me, like a shopping list...most want the most expensive, and most impressive. You pick it, the spiritual giants of the community lay hands on you, say the words...you check out with your gift. Again, I think the key is to remain sensitive, and humbly accept and use what ever the Spirit gives. Anyways, great thoughts Mark...it is slowly becoming a word we don't hear much about anymore...and sadly it is the thing the church needs to be most conscious of. This also leads into the conversation of spiritual warfare...is it a reality in the life of the church anymore?
Michael Westmoreland-White
· 2 years ago
As a Charismatic Baptist, I agree with you--and also tend to be at odds with my denomination and tradition. I would like to introduce you to some folks you'll appreciate and who will appreciate you: The Pentacostal and Charismatic Peace Fellowship. See http://www.pcpf.org/ You'll be glad you did.
Michael Westmoreland-White
· 2 years ago
As a Charismatic Baptist, I agree with you--and also tend to be at odds with my denomination and tradition. I would like to introduce you to some folks you'll appreciate and who will appreciate you: The Pentacostal and Charismatic Peace Fellowship. See http://www.pcpf.org/ You'll be glad you did.
dlw
· 2 years ago
My diff with pentecostalism is that I believe that changed hearts and lives are the most important miracles that Christians shd pray for. I also think that pentecostals tend to prioritize the "lesser gifts".
But I have benefitted from Greg Boyd's ministry much in my life and like how the Orebro Mission showed how Baptists could also learn from Pentecostalism. I think Pentecostalism helped to subvert the Western modernist worldview and recenter us on the relatively decentralized expansion of the church, rather than creeds.
It is a shame that Pentecostalism emerged around the time of the Fundamentalist-Modernist schism, taking on many of the bad aspects of Fundamentalism, but I think that's likely to change as Pentecostals from the 2/3rds world grow in maturity and autonomy.
dlw
dlw
· 2 years ago
My diff with pentecostalism is that I believe that changed hearts and lives are the most important miracles that Christians shd pray for. I also think that pentecostals tend to prioritize the "lesser gifts".
But I have benefitted from Greg Boyd's ministry much in my life and like how the Orebro Mission showed how Baptists could also learn from Pentecostalism. I think Pentecostalism helped to subvert the Western modernist worldview and recenter us on the relatively decentralized expansion of the church, rather than creeds.
It is a shame that Pentecostalism emerged around the time of the Fundamentalist-Modernist schism, taking on many of the bad aspects of Fundamentalism, but I think that's likely to change as Pentecostals from the 2/3rds world grow in maturity and autonomy.
dlw
Anna
· 2 years ago
Hi Mark,
I pretty much agree with your above statements, though I haven't articulated them systematically. Here is a nifty story:
My husband oversees a ministry training program within a Teen Challenge center, provided by Southwestern AOG University. This semester, the students were taking "Pentecostal Doctrine". When they came to the point on speaking in tongues, everyone disagreed with the traditional AOG stance. They came to the conclusion that tongues are not the first evidence of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit! A changed life is the first evidence, they said. :)
Anna
· 2 years ago
Hi Mark,
I pretty much agree with your above statements, though I haven't articulated them systematically. Here is a nifty story:
My husband oversees a ministry training program within a Teen Challenge center, provided by Southwestern AOG University. This semester, the students were taking "Pentecostal Doctrine". When they came to the point on speaking in tongues, everyone disagreed with the traditional AOG stance. They came to the conclusion that tongues are not the first evidence of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit! A changed life is the first evidence, they said. :)
Brother Maynard
· 2 years ago
Mark,
I tried to ping you with a trackback, but you must have them disabled... in any event, your post got me thinking and triggered this response post on my blog. I'm kind of lumping you into the post-charismatic camp for the fact that you still intend to be charismatic, but not in the way it's been done before. No fear, the post-charismatics need more voices within the emerging church conversation.
Gratia vobis et pax,
Brother Maynard
· 2 years ago
Mark,
I tried to ping you with a trackback, but you must have them disabled... in any event, your post got me thinking and triggered this response post on my blog. I'm kind of lumping you into the post-charismatic camp for the fact that you still intend to be charismatic, but not in the way it's been done before. No fear, the post-charismatics need more voices within the emerging church conversation.
Gratia vobis et pax,
Frank Emanuel
· 2 years ago
Very nice post. I think of myself as a Christian with a charismatic spirituality. But I have a lot of the same concerns as you do on what the charismatics find normative in their movements.
Frank Emanuel
· 2 years ago
Very nice post. I think of myself as a Christian with a charismatic spirituality. But I have a lot of the same concerns as you do on what the charismatics find normative in their movements.
All Comments
Another thought is that sometimes the gift you recieve is not " a life time gift ", that maybe there is a best before date...he gives it to you for a season...and then gives you something else. The wind blows when and where it wants...its up to the community to remain sensitive to it...and just respond.
And the inventory list does get to me, like a shopping list...most want the most expensive, and most impressive. You pick it, the spiritual giants of the community lay hands on you, say the words...you check out with your gift. Again, I think the key is to remain sensitive, and humbly accept and use what ever the Spirit gives.
Anyways, great thoughts Mark...it is slowly becoming a word we don't hear much about anymore...and sadly it is the thing the church needs to be most conscious of.
This also leads into the conversation of spiritual warfare...is it a reality in the life of the church anymore?
Another thought is that sometimes the gift you recieve is not " a life time gift ", that maybe there is a best before date...he gives it to you for a season...and then gives you something else. The wind blows when and where it wants...its up to the community to remain sensitive to it...and just respond.
And the inventory list does get to me, like a shopping list...most want the most expensive, and most impressive. You pick it, the spiritual giants of the community lay hands on you, say the words...you check out with your gift. Again, I think the key is to remain sensitive, and humbly accept and use what ever the Spirit gives.
Anyways, great thoughts Mark...it is slowly becoming a word we don't hear much about anymore...and sadly it is the thing the church needs to be most conscious of.
This also leads into the conversation of spiritual warfare...is it a reality in the life of the church anymore?
But I have benefitted from Greg Boyd's ministry much in my life and like how the Orebro Mission showed how Baptists could also learn from Pentecostalism. I think Pentecostalism helped to subvert the Western modernist worldview and recenter us on the relatively decentralized expansion of the church, rather than creeds.
It is a shame that Pentecostalism emerged around the time of the Fundamentalist-Modernist schism, taking on many of the bad aspects of Fundamentalism, but I think that's likely to change as Pentecostals from the 2/3rds world grow in maturity and autonomy.
dlw
But I have benefitted from Greg Boyd's ministry much in my life and like how the Orebro Mission showed how Baptists could also learn from Pentecostalism. I think Pentecostalism helped to subvert the Western modernist worldview and recenter us on the relatively decentralized expansion of the church, rather than creeds.
It is a shame that Pentecostalism emerged around the time of the Fundamentalist-Modernist schism, taking on many of the bad aspects of Fundamentalism, but I think that's likely to change as Pentecostals from the 2/3rds world grow in maturity and autonomy.
dlw
I pretty much agree with your above statements, though I haven't articulated them systematically. Here is a nifty story:
My husband oversees a ministry training program within a Teen Challenge center, provided by Southwestern AOG University. This semester, the students were taking "Pentecostal Doctrine". When they came to the point on speaking in tongues, everyone disagreed with the traditional AOG stance. They came to the conclusion that tongues are not the first evidence of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit! A changed life is the first evidence, they said. :)
I pretty much agree with your above statements, though I haven't articulated them systematically. Here is a nifty story:
My husband oversees a ministry training program within a Teen Challenge center, provided by Southwestern AOG University. This semester, the students were taking "Pentecostal Doctrine". When they came to the point on speaking in tongues, everyone disagreed with the traditional AOG stance. They came to the conclusion that tongues are not the first evidence of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit! A changed life is the first evidence, they said. :)
I tried to ping you with a trackback, but you must have them disabled... in any event, your post got me thinking and triggered this response post on my blog. I'm kind of lumping you into the post-charismatic camp for the fact that you still intend to be charismatic, but not in the way it's been done before. No fear, the post-charismatics need more voices within the emerging church conversation.
Gratia vobis et pax,
I tried to ping you with a trackback, but you must have them disabled... in any event, your post got me thinking and triggered this response post on my blog. I'm kind of lumping you into the post-charismatic camp for the fact that you still intend to be charismatic, but not in the way it's been done before. No fear, the post-charismatics need more voices within the emerging church conversation.
Gratia vobis et pax,