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Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ariah Fine — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:30:34 -0000

Dude, you got to check this out:
http://www.anothersky.org/main/our-beliefs/

I think you'd be impressed.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ariah Fine — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:30:34 -0000

Dude, you got to check this out:
http://www.anothersky.org/m...

I think you'd be impressed.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Miracle — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:47:40 -0000

Interestingly, I found your blog by searching the linking scheme of Ginkworld on Google. We at ginkworld have created the ginktionary as on open source faith dictionary (its a wiki). We also have a rewrite project that words the new testament in today's cultural language as a open source wiki. I completely agree with your sentiment about open sourcing christianity. It can be done and the main contributors can still find enough income to feed their family. They will just have to be creative and humble about it.

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Miracle — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:47:40 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ariah Fine — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:29:17 -0000

Mark,

This is fabulous. Let me just say that I strongly resonate with you. I still think you should do what you feel is most in line with following Scripture as it relates to specific situations (the Ellul material), but let's look at the bigger picture your talking about.

Your absolutely right that we could do this thing SO much better. I've always thought all churches should have libraries, and yet, people still don't read that much. Imagine inter-library loan from church to church. Wouldn't that be pretty sweet?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Ariah Fine — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:29:17 -0000

Mark,

This is fabulous. Let me just say that I strongly resonate with you. I still think you should do what you feel is most in line with following Scripture as it relates to specific situations (the Ellul material), but let's look at the bigger picture your talking about.

Your absolutely right that we could do this thing SO much better. I've always thought all churches should have libraries, and yet, people still don't read that much. Imagine inter-library loan from church to church. Wouldn't that be pretty sweet?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Michael — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:15:38 -0000

The problem of course is that the Christian book publishing industry, and especially the CCM industry, are INDUSTRIES.

Also good to distinguish here between the mainstream Christian book publishing industry (Zondervan owned by Rupert Murdoch, for example) and other theological publishing houses which, although are "industries," are much smaller and not primarily about profit.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Michael — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:15:38 -0000

The problem of course is that the Christian book publishing industry, and especially the CCM industry, are INDUSTRIES.

Also good to distinguish here between the mainstream Christian book publishing industry (Zondervan owned by Rupert Murdoch, for example) and other theological publishing houses which, although are "industries," are much smaller and not primarily about profit.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Luke — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:26:10 -0000

One of my favorite techniques is to summarize all the best bits of an expensive book in a blog post, which is of course available for free.

The problem of course is that the Christian book publishing industry, and especially the CCM industry, are INDUSTRIES. They exist to make money, not to help people. (That is also why 99% of what they produce, like 99% of the self-help market, is bullshit made to entice - not help - you.)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Luke — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:26:10 -0000

One of my favorite techniques is to summarize all the best bits of an expensive book in a blog post, which is of course available for free.

The problem of course is that the Christian book publishing industry, and especially the CCM industry, are INDUSTRIES. They exist to make money, not to help people. (That is also why 99% of what they produce, like 99% of the self-help market, is bullshit made to entice - not help - you.)

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Chris — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:51:21 -0000

Well, this has been a fascinating post and a great set of comments. Such a complex issue. I think the central problem, the key to creating an open system of shared resources in the Christian Church is actually to start with a closed system. What makes it difficult to even begin to address any specific material we wish to share (Bible resources, spiritual literature, food, clothing), is that our current system of Christian living is TOO open.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Chris — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:51:21 -0000

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jack Frost — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:46:22 -0000

www.ccel.org - Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jack Frost — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:46:22 -0000

www.ccel.org - Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

amy — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:31:26 -0000

i'm not sure i understand any of this. maybe i should just read/listen... i can't help but share my thoughts though. please forgive me if i'm way off the mark here. (pardon the pun, hahaaa)

the reason i'm so confused is that i use copyrighted material all the time in my creative works. chunks and slivers of it, not entire songs or works. i'm not making any money off it. i ask the artists for permission and have received it a few times, from people like sufjan stevens. sometimes i don't hear back, but so far no one has complained or asked me to remove something from my blog.

i'm not sure what the problem is. you can borrow what you're inspired to, share what you're moved to share, and ask the artist/writer if they mind. if they do then, of course, respect their wishes.

i'd be very surprised if they minded, though in your case if you're republishing an entire book or something like that then you really might be infringing on the author's free will to do with it what he pleases.

the author who received the work and helped to bring it to earth in whatever form can decide (hopefully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) what to do with it and how much of it to share and with whom and so on. if you're moved to share a bit, ask for permission, praise the author, and move on to the next message.

mark, i hope you don't mind my frankness...

but you seem determined to revolutionize something. it's like part of your identity. it's curious. but it may get in the way of doing what we're really supposed to be doing. which is to love one another.

am i missing something here? i certianly could be, and very likely am... please enlighten me.... i'm listening...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

amy — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:31:26 -0000

i'm not sure i understand any of this. maybe i should just read/listen... i can't help but share my thoughts though. please forgive me if i'm way off the mark here. (pardon the pun, hahaaa)

the reason i'm so confused is that i use copyrighted material all the time in my creative works. chunks and slivers of it, not entire songs or works. i'm not making any money off it. i ask the artists for permission and have received it a few times, from people like sufjan stevens. sometimes i don't hear back, but so far no one has complained or asked me to remove something from my blog.

i'm not sure what the problem is. you can borrow what you're inspired to, share what you're moved to share, and ask the artist/writer if they mind. if they do then, of course, respect their wishes.

i'd be very surprised if they minded, though in your case if you're republishing an entire book or something like that then you really might be infringing on the author's free will to do with it what he pleases.

the author who received the work and helped to bring it to earth in whatever form can decide (hopefully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) what to do with it and how much of it to share and with whom and so on. if you're moved to share a bit, ask for permission, praise the author, and move on to the next message.

mark, i hope you don't mind my frankness...

but you seem determined to revolutionize something. it's like part of your identity. it's curious. but it may get in the way of doing what we're really supposed to be doing. which is to love one another.

am i missing something here? i certianly could be, and very likely am... please enlighten me.... i'm listening...

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jonas Lundström — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:28:56 -0000

Mark, I respect your choice to publish Ellul´s work. Probably you are doing the right thing. As I see it, this is also a question of delivering God´s message in a worthy manner. We have been given for free and we should give for free. Christians should never demand a specific amount of money for using their spirit-given role in the Messiah´s body. God´s message is a message of grace!! If people freely decide to support our basic needs when we use our gifts, this is ok, but we should deliver even if nobody does.

To me, this means not only means that I wouldn´t (with the convictions I have today) write a book or an article and demand that people pay for it. I also wouldn´t receive a fixed salary for preaching or serving in the church. In Sweden, we had a movement that started 140 years ago, later called "the free baptists", that for theological reasons avoided employing pastors etc for almost a hundred years (before they began to be like every bode else). I think they were right.

I still buy books etc since this often is the only way to get the hands on good material (but thanx to the Bruderhof and others who do it differently). And I think I wouldn´t "steal" a "christian" book. Would you?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Jonas Lundström — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:28:56 -0000

To me, this means not only means that I wouldn´t (with the convictions I have today) write a book or an article and demand that people pay for it. I also wouldn´t receive a fixed salary for preaching or serving in the church. In Sweden, we had a movement that started 140 years ago, later called "the free baptists", that for theological reasons avoided employing pastors etc for almost a hundred years (before they began to be like every bode else). I think they were right.

I still buy books etc since this often is the only way to get the hands on good material (but thanx to the Bruderhof and others who do it differently). And I think I wouldn´t "steal" a "christian" book. Would you?

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Michael — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:58:45 -0000

Mark, I think the fact that most of the Ellul stuff you are distributing is out of print is an important factor that most of your critics either don't realize or are ignoring. If you were distributing a book that is in print, that would be more problematic I think.

Consider posting a short note that describes your justification for breaking the law in this case: 1) that these books are not in print, 2) that to your knowledge there are no plans to bring these books back into print, and 3) you are providing them for free and for research purposes only.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Michael — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:58:45 -0000

Consider posting a short note that describes your justification for breaking the law in this case: 1) that these books are not in print, 2) that to your knowledge there are no plans to bring these books back into print, and 3) you are providing them for free and for research purposes only.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

markvans — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:57:37 -0000

These are fair challenges. I'll give some serious thought to taking down the Ellul resources. Let's set that particular issue aside for the sake of conversation here, since there have been a number of issues raised.

I am all for people getting paid for their work. I'm not advocating that authors take a hit. But the publishing system (and other systems of distribution) are inadequate. My fundamental question is a systemic one: how can we go about this whole thing in a better way?

This isn't a case of "when in Rome." That sort of thinking simply maintains the status quo when it applies to ethics. We don't adopt the ethical standards of Rome. We try to live out Christian standards. The question I want us to focus in on is this: how can we rethink and reapproach the way in which we distribute information in a way that is just, ethical, and fair?

All I'm hearing is: "We need to work with it the way it is." If given the choice between this and violating copyright, I'm tempted to violate copyright. Not arbitrarily. When the Christian anarchist writings of a long deceased author are out of print (and hard to find), is it better to distribute them freely or to honor the law? I'm becoming convinced that it is better to honor the law in this case, but I do so very begrudgingly.

Yes, at the same time I buy books on Amazon. Why? Because I think the alternative of simply abstaining from capitalism isn't a real option.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

markvans — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:57:37 -0000

I am all for people getting paid for their work. I'm not advocating that authors take a hit. But the publishing system (and other systems of distribution) are inadequate. My fundamental question is a systemic one: how can we go about this whole thing in a better way?

This isn't a case of "when in Rome." That sort of thinking simply maintains the status quo when it applies to ethics. We don't adopt the ethical standards of Rome. We try to live out Christian standards. The question I want us to focus in on is this: how can we rethink and reapproach the way in which we distribute information in a way that is just, ethical, and fair?

All I'm hearing is: "We need to work with it the way it is." If given the choice between this and violating copyright, I'm tempted to violate copyright. Not arbitrarily. When the Christian anarchist writings of a long deceased author are out of print (and hard to find), is it better to distribute them freely or to honor the law? I'm becoming convinced that it is better to honor the law in this case, but I do so very begrudgingly.

Yes, at the same time I buy books on Amazon. Why? Because I think the alternative of simply abstaining from capitalism isn't a real option.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

amy — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:18:12 -0000

if you are hoping for more great christian books to get into the hands of poor folks then you could raise some money to buy a whole bunch of them and then give them away.

if these christian publishers can sell books to people with an excess of money then can't they use the money they make and produce more books to give away?

(wait, is this about the poor people or the preacher authors? maybe i need to re-read your post....)

these are just my first thoughts. i'll share them even though they may be oversimplified (silly). and i'll pray on it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

amy — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:18:12 -0000

if you are hoping for more great christian books to get into the hands of poor folks then you could raise some money to buy a whole bunch of them and then give them away.

if these christian publishers can sell books to people with an excess of money then can't they use the money they make and produce more books to give away?

(wait, is this about the poor people or the preacher authors? maybe i need to re-read your post....)

these are just my first thoughts. i'll share them even though they may be oversimplified (silly). and i'll pray on it.

Re: the Jesus Manifesto » Maintenance Mode

Chris — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:57:02 -0000

I have to agree with Mark and Ryan. I understand your desire to provide access to something in equal measure to all Christians. But the way you are trying to achieve that is unethical, and like Mark said (but in my own words), it is a teleological effort (your end justifies your means) and not a deontological one. You're recognizing an underlying challenge (I wouldn't necessarily even call it a "problem") in the Christian church, which is the unequal distribution of material resources. But you're deciding (quite arbitrarily I think) to address it by ignoring the laws that protect a company that provides Christian material. This doesn't actually address socio-economic inequality in the Church, because not only does it miss the mark on changing consumer patterns among Christians, it doesn't address why some Christians are rich and some are poor. I admire the effort at open sourcing, but you need the permission of everyone involved in open sourcing for it to work.