Seriously, I think there is major Kingdom work to be done not only in exposing the Consumer Capitalist metanarrative [sooo liberal arts degree---I like] but also in living as a bridge from one side to the other. Youth tend to know they are being sold to something, gripe about it, but then join in for the kicks.
The most difficult part is branding Lent. Perhaps we can do a Maker's Diet approach?? "50 days to a new you, inside and out! Celebrate Easter in your new bikini!"
Completely tongue in cheek. ~I'll go be theologically silly on my own blog... Anna
Anna
· 2 years ago
Curtain Number 3, please.
Seriously, I think there is major Kingdom work to be done not only in exposing the Consumer Capitalist metanarrative [sooo liberal arts degree---I like] but also in living as a bridge from one side to the other. Youth tend to know they are being sold to something, gripe about it, but then join in for the kicks.
The most difficult part is branding Lent. Perhaps we can do a Maker's Diet approach?? "50 days to a new you, inside and out! Celebrate Easter in your new bikini!"
Completely tongue in cheek. ~I'll go be theologically silly on my own blog... Anna
Geoff Holsclaw
· 2 years ago
mark,
many times i feel the emerging church is really just a version of seekers church 2.0 under the guise of being 'missional' etc. ( a candle and coffee aesthetic change w/o any real critique).
but option 3 can be a real pain in the butt. everytime I think we are making progress with the families at our church, new things come up that make it hard (impossible) to form identity around Christ.
i'm trying form a contemplative approach to youth ministry while one family lets their children be PS2s to church. how can I compete with that?
Geoff Holsclaw
· 2 years ago
mark,
many times i feel the emerging church is really just a version of seekers church 2.0 under the guise of being 'missional' etc. ( a candle and coffee aesthetic change w/o any real critique).
but option 3 can be a real pain in the butt. everytime I think we are making progress with the families at our church, new things come up that make it hard (impossible) to form identity around Christ.
i'm trying form a contemplative approach to youth ministry while one family lets their children be PS2s to church. how can I compete with that?
Nate
· 2 years ago
I agree that there is a big dilemma with these questions. I'm not sure right now how to turn that huge ship around. And it really is a big ship. If we are dealing with something that has become the norm, per se, of American culture, how do we help Christians realize that?
I suppose there needs to be an increase in raising awareness of what is happening. There needs to be a prophetic voice in the Christian communities (might as well be us) who will deliberately address the issue. It is a small start and long process...
Should be a good convo on Thurs.
Nate
· 2 years ago
I agree that there is a big dilemma with these questions. I'm not sure right now how to turn that huge ship around. And it really is a big ship. If we are dealing with something that has become the norm, per se, of American culture, how do we help Christians realize that?
I suppose there needs to be an increase in raising awareness of what is happening. There needs to be a prophetic voice in the Christian communities (might as well be us) who will deliberately address the issue. It is a small start and long process...
Should be a good convo on Thurs.
Richard Daley
· 2 years ago
You know, I may be coming at this from the wrong angle (and it may be a cultural thing) but I read the first paragraph and think that it's a failure of Christian parents to instill the values they believe to be true in their children. It's great that children (young and adult) should have the choice to change churches/denominations, but part of me says that they shouldn't feel the need.
The other thought that I'm having is that we may need to do a combination of one and three. I think that those who are spiritually hungry (and not committed to a faith) may not know a different way of searching for it except through capitalist consumer ways. We do need people to be able to find our doors, but once they get in, it should be a different world.
There's the oft-used but pretty cool illustration of the church as an ark in the waters of the world. I think if we want to rescue those that are drowning, we have to figure out how much we are willing to get the boat wet to do so and how are we going to pump out the water that's inevitably come in over the sides and leak through the bottom.
Richard Daley
· 2 years ago
You know, I may be coming at this from the wrong angle (and it may be a cultural thing) but I read the first paragraph and think that it's a failure of Christian parents to instill the values they believe to be true in their children. It's great that children (young and adult) should have the choice to change churches/denominations, but part of me says that they shouldn't feel the need.
The other thought that I'm having is that we may need to do a combination of one and three. I think that those who are spiritually hungry (and not committed to a faith) may not know a different way of searching for it except through capitalist consumer ways. We do need people to be able to find our doors, but once they get in, it should be a different world.
There's the oft-used but pretty cool illustration of the church as an ark in the waters of the world. I think if we want to rescue those that are drowning, we have to figure out how much we are willing to get the boat wet to do so and how are we going to pump out the water that's inevitably come in over the sides and leak through the bottom.
Cullen
· 2 years ago
Mark, you know that I'm just as cynical as you, but I'm not sure you can draw a 1:1 correlation between the trend of church-hopping and a consumerism ethos. The thing that makes consumerism go is a multiplicity of companies in competition, offering basically the same product with variations in quality and marketing. The problem with attaching this analogically to the church is that some churches simply offer a different product than others.
Now step into my church-hopper's confessional: I speak as one who left a mainstream denominational church, having never heard the heart of the gospel, for loftier climbs as a youth. Not long after this, I returned to the church of my childhood to try and stir things up. It isn't that the gospel in that church was of lesser quality or that it wasn't marketed well enough, it was just buried underneath all the other things that broken people like me decide that church is about.
I certainly agree that far too many elements of consumerism have invaded Christianity in the US, but to say that recent trends in fluctuation of attendance are solely the result of consumerism is too broad of a generalization.
Cullen
· 2 years ago
Mark, you know that I'm just as cynical as you, but I'm not sure you can draw a 1:1 correlation between the trend of church-hopping and a consumerism ethos. The thing that makes consumerism go is a multiplicity of companies in competition, offering basically the same product with variations in quality and marketing. The problem with attaching this analogically to the church is that some churches simply offer a different product than others.
Now step into my church-hopper's confessional: I speak as one who left a mainstream denominational church, having never heard the heart of the gospel, for loftier climbs as a youth. Not long after this, I returned to the church of my childhood to try and stir things up. It isn't that the gospel in that church was of lesser quality or that it wasn't marketed well enough, it was just buried underneath all the other things that broken people like me decide that church is about.
I certainly agree that far too many elements of consumerism have invaded Christianity in the US, but to say that recent trends in fluctuation of attendance are solely the result of consumerism is too broad of a generalization.
markvans
· 2 years ago
Cullen,
I don't think I said that these fluctuations are solely a result of consumerism. However, I think you underestimate the scope and effect of consumerism on our lives. Sure, there isn't a 1:1 correspondence here, but so many of the cogs in the machine of consumer capitalism are also driving the machine of consumer religion. One could say that consumerism and the rise of religious choice are separate phenomenon. But so many of the same things are driving them that it makes one wonder if they aren't a part of the same phenomenon.
What I think is happening is that we in the West have been socialized by our consumer culture into certain ways of seeing the world and have adopted certain habits. We can't help but see religion as fundamentally an issue of personal choice that one acquires or discards based upon their own choice. Religion isn't therefore something to submit to, but something to be evaluated by the experience one has of it...in other words, if it doesn't taste good, we discard it and look for another one.
For further reading, I direct you to Vincent Miller's Consuming Religion, Tom Beaudoin's Consuming Faith, and J. Carrette's Selling Religion.
markvans
· 2 years ago
Cullen,
I don't think I said that these fluctuations are solely a result of consumerism. However, I think you underestimate the scope and effect of consumerism on our lives. Sure, there isn't a 1:1 correspondence here, but so many of the cogs in the machine of consumer capitalism are also driving the machine of consumer religion. One could say that consumerism and the rise of religious choice are separate phenomenon. But so many of the same things are driving them that it makes one wonder if they aren't a part of the same phenomenon.
What I think is happening is that we in the West have been socialized by our consumer culture into certain ways of seeing the world and have adopted certain habits. We can't help but see religion as fundamentally an issue of personal choice that one acquires or discards based upon their own choice. Religion isn't therefore something to submit to, but something to be evaluated by the experience one has of it...in other words, if it doesn't taste good, we discard it and look for another one.
For further reading, I direct you to Vincent Miller's Consuming Religion, Tom Beaudoin's Consuming Faith, and J. Carrette's Selling Religion.
Cullen
· 2 years ago
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your concept of the source of church-hopping trends.
But what if the religion one submits to is false or shallow?
The most fundamental issue going on here is that the thing we call 'church' is so rarely an authentic community, that to come and go from one to another actually says very little about our spiritual allegiance.
If religious identity is supposed to be "something formed in a community with a tradition and a way of understanding the world" (and I believe that it is), then most of our 'churches' are not doing their job. Rather, they offer a list of 'services' which we, being good consumers, select from the menu, or move on to the next store that offers something more to our liking. When I did my church hopping, I did not abandon one community for another. I abandoned a set of concepts and a musical preference for something more gripping. I didn't interact with relationships that added meaning to my religious identity in either locale.
I guess that for me, the problem of consumerism is at its ugliest not within individuals or between traditions, but among the communities themselves -- the communities that fail to offer the kind of connection to God and one another that Christ envisioned for us.
Cullen
· 2 years ago
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your concept of the source of church-hopping trends.
But what if the religion one submits to is false or shallow?
The most fundamental issue going on here is that the thing we call 'church' is so rarely an authentic community, that to come and go from one to another actually says very little about our spiritual allegiance.
If religious identity is supposed to be "something formed in a community with a tradition and a way of understanding the world" (and I believe that it is), then most of our 'churches' are not doing their job. Rather, they offer a list of 'services' which we, being good consumers, select from the menu, or move on to the next store that offers something more to our liking. When I did my church hopping, I did not abandon one community for another. I abandoned a set of concepts and a musical preference for something more gripping. I didn't interact with relationships that added meaning to my religious identity in either locale.
I guess that for me, the problem of consumerism is at its ugliest not within individuals or between traditions, but among the communities themselves -- the communities that fail to offer the kind of connection to God and one another that Christ envisioned for us.
dlw
· 2 years ago
Well...
I don't have a problem with people changing denominations, for me the bottom line are the sorts of disciplines we undertake as Christians, with deliberating on/questioning the meaning of our faith in a tradition being a critical sort of discipline. For me, it's not the choice or market aspects that are the problem, but rather what's not going on.
The turn towards hyper-individualism in the past thirty-plus years in US culture is toxic for our Christianities and it seems that Christians who are intentionally committed to work thoughtfully from within given traditions have done a better job in resisting these general cultural changes, but not necessarily a good job in reaching out to others(via marketing).
I am not against Christian marketing, this has been an important part of keeping a more Bible-centered Christianity alive in the US and I'd guess that the power of the Bible was what helped us attract people who were creative marketers and innovators.
The market metaphor isn't "bad", per se. What is bad is the omission of the fact that markets are a metaphor whose metaphorical status has been forgotten and that "markets" are, in fact, products of institutions, including the sorts of disciplines people undertake in making their critical life choices.
dlw
dlw
· 2 years ago
Well...
I don't have a problem with people changing denominations, for me the bottom line are the sorts of disciplines we undertake as Christians, with deliberating on/questioning the meaning of our faith in a tradition being a critical sort of discipline. For me, it's not the choice or market aspects that are the problem, but rather what's not going on.
The turn towards hyper-individualism in the past thirty-plus years in US culture is toxic for our Christianities and it seems that Christians who are intentionally committed to work thoughtfully from within given traditions have done a better job in resisting these general cultural changes, but not necessarily a good job in reaching out to others(via marketing).
I am not against Christian marketing, this has been an important part of keeping a more Bible-centered Christianity alive in the US and I'd guess that the power of the Bible was what helped us attract people who were creative marketers and innovators.
The market metaphor isn't "bad", per se. What is bad is the omission of the fact that markets are a metaphor whose metaphorical status has been forgotten and that "markets" are, in fact, products of institutions, including the sorts of disciplines people undertake in making their critical life choices.
dlw
Ariah Fine
· 2 years ago
Definitely an interesting take. I've been peeking at the Missio Dei stuff and found your conference on consumption recently. Looking forward to more.
Ariah Fine
· 2 years ago
Definitely an interesting take. I've been peeking at the Missio Dei stuff and found your conference on consumption recently. Looking forward to more.
All Comments
Seriously, I think there is major Kingdom work to be done not only in exposing the Consumer Capitalist metanarrative [sooo liberal arts degree---I like] but also in living as a bridge from one side to the other. Youth tend to know they are being sold to something, gripe about it, but then join in for the kicks.
The most difficult part is branding Lent. Perhaps we can do a Maker's Diet approach?? "50 days to a new you, inside and out! Celebrate Easter in your new bikini!"
Completely tongue in cheek. ~I'll go be theologically silly on my own blog...
Anna
Seriously, I think there is major Kingdom work to be done not only in exposing the Consumer Capitalist metanarrative [sooo liberal arts degree---I like] but also in living as a bridge from one side to the other. Youth tend to know they are being sold to something, gripe about it, but then join in for the kicks.
The most difficult part is branding Lent. Perhaps we can do a Maker's Diet approach?? "50 days to a new you, inside and out! Celebrate Easter in your new bikini!"
Completely tongue in cheek. ~I'll go be theologically silly on my own blog...
Anna
many times i feel the emerging church is really just a version of seekers church 2.0 under the guise of being 'missional' etc. ( a candle and coffee aesthetic change w/o any real critique).
but option 3 can be a real pain in the butt. everytime I think we are making progress with the families at our church, new things come up that make it hard (impossible) to form identity around Christ.
i'm trying form a contemplative approach to youth ministry while one family lets their children be PS2s to church. how can I compete with that?
many times i feel the emerging church is really just a version of seekers church 2.0 under the guise of being 'missional' etc. ( a candle and coffee aesthetic change w/o any real critique).
but option 3 can be a real pain in the butt. everytime I think we are making progress with the families at our church, new things come up that make it hard (impossible) to form identity around Christ.
i'm trying form a contemplative approach to youth ministry while one family lets their children be PS2s to church. how can I compete with that?
I suppose there needs to be an increase in raising awareness of what is happening. There needs to be a prophetic voice in the Christian communities (might as well be us) who will deliberately address the issue. It is a small start and long process...
Should be a good convo on Thurs.
I suppose there needs to be an increase in raising awareness of what is happening. There needs to be a prophetic voice in the Christian communities (might as well be us) who will deliberately address the issue. It is a small start and long process...
Should be a good convo on Thurs.
The other thought that I'm having is that we may need to do a combination of one and three. I think that those who are spiritually hungry (and not committed to a faith) may not know a different way of searching for it except through capitalist consumer ways. We do need people to be able to find our doors, but once they get in, it should be a different world.
There's the oft-used but pretty cool illustration of the church as an ark in the waters of the world. I think if we want to rescue those that are drowning, we have to figure out how much we are willing to get the boat wet to do so and how are we going to pump out the water that's inevitably come in over the sides and leak through the bottom.
The other thought that I'm having is that we may need to do a combination of one and three. I think that those who are spiritually hungry (and not committed to a faith) may not know a different way of searching for it except through capitalist consumer ways. We do need people to be able to find our doors, but once they get in, it should be a different world.
There's the oft-used but pretty cool illustration of the church as an ark in the waters of the world. I think if we want to rescue those that are drowning, we have to figure out how much we are willing to get the boat wet to do so and how are we going to pump out the water that's inevitably come in over the sides and leak through the bottom.
Now step into my church-hopper's confessional: I speak as one who left a mainstream denominational church, having never heard the heart of the gospel, for loftier climbs as a youth. Not long after this, I returned to the church of my childhood to try and stir things up. It isn't that the gospel in that church was of lesser quality or that it wasn't marketed well enough, it was just buried underneath all the other things that broken people like me decide that church is about.
I certainly agree that far too many elements of consumerism have invaded Christianity in the US, but to say that recent trends in fluctuation of attendance are solely the result of consumerism is too broad of a generalization.
Now step into my church-hopper's confessional: I speak as one who left a mainstream denominational church, having never heard the heart of the gospel, for loftier climbs as a youth. Not long after this, I returned to the church of my childhood to try and stir things up. It isn't that the gospel in that church was of lesser quality or that it wasn't marketed well enough, it was just buried underneath all the other things that broken people like me decide that church is about.
I certainly agree that far too many elements of consumerism have invaded Christianity in the US, but to say that recent trends in fluctuation of attendance are solely the result of consumerism is too broad of a generalization.
I don't think I said that these fluctuations are solely a result of consumerism. However, I think you underestimate the scope and effect of consumerism on our lives. Sure, there isn't a 1:1 correspondence here, but so many of the cogs in the machine of consumer capitalism are also driving the machine of consumer religion. One could say that consumerism and the rise of religious choice are separate phenomenon. But so many of the same things are driving them that it makes one wonder if they aren't a part of the same phenomenon.
What I think is happening is that we in the West have been socialized by our consumer culture into certain ways of seeing the world and have adopted certain habits. We can't help but see religion as fundamentally an issue of personal choice that one acquires or discards based upon their own choice. Religion isn't therefore something to submit to, but something to be evaluated by the experience one has of it...in other words, if it doesn't taste good, we discard it and look for another one.
For further reading, I direct you to Vincent Miller's Consuming Religion, Tom Beaudoin's Consuming Faith, and J. Carrette's Selling Religion.
I don't think I said that these fluctuations are solely a result of consumerism. However, I think you underestimate the scope and effect of consumerism on our lives. Sure, there isn't a 1:1 correspondence here, but so many of the cogs in the machine of consumer capitalism are also driving the machine of consumer religion. One could say that consumerism and the rise of religious choice are separate phenomenon. But so many of the same things are driving them that it makes one wonder if they aren't a part of the same phenomenon.
What I think is happening is that we in the West have been socialized by our consumer culture into certain ways of seeing the world and have adopted certain habits. We can't help but see religion as fundamentally an issue of personal choice that one acquires or discards based upon their own choice. Religion isn't therefore something to submit to, but something to be evaluated by the experience one has of it...in other words, if it doesn't taste good, we discard it and look for another one.
For further reading, I direct you to Vincent Miller's Consuming Religion, Tom Beaudoin's Consuming Faith, and J. Carrette's Selling Religion.
But what if the religion one submits to is false or shallow?
The most fundamental issue going on here is that the thing we call 'church' is so rarely an authentic community, that to come and go from one to another actually says very little about our spiritual allegiance.
If religious identity is supposed to be "something formed in a community with a tradition and a way of understanding the world" (and I believe that it is), then most of our 'churches' are not doing their job. Rather, they offer a list of 'services' which we, being good consumers, select from the menu, or move on to the next store that offers something more to our liking. When I did my church hopping, I did not abandon one community for another. I abandoned a set of concepts and a musical preference for something more gripping. I didn't interact with relationships that added meaning to my religious identity in either locale.
I guess that for me, the problem of consumerism is at its ugliest not within individuals or between traditions, but among the communities themselves -- the communities that fail to offer the kind of connection to God and one another that Christ envisioned for us.
But what if the religion one submits to is false or shallow?
The most fundamental issue going on here is that the thing we call 'church' is so rarely an authentic community, that to come and go from one to another actually says very little about our spiritual allegiance.
If religious identity is supposed to be "something formed in a community with a tradition and a way of understanding the world" (and I believe that it is), then most of our 'churches' are not doing their job. Rather, they offer a list of 'services' which we, being good consumers, select from the menu, or move on to the next store that offers something more to our liking. When I did my church hopping, I did not abandon one community for another. I abandoned a set of concepts and a musical preference for something more gripping. I didn't interact with relationships that added meaning to my religious identity in either locale.
I guess that for me, the problem of consumerism is at its ugliest not within individuals or between traditions, but among the communities themselves -- the communities that fail to offer the kind of connection to God and one another that Christ envisioned for us.
I don't have a problem with people changing denominations, for me the bottom line are the sorts of disciplines we undertake as Christians, with deliberating on/questioning the meaning of our faith in a tradition being a critical sort of discipline. For me, it's not the choice or market aspects that are the problem, but rather what's not going on.
The turn towards hyper-individualism in the past thirty-plus years in US culture is toxic for our Christianities and it seems that Christians who are intentionally committed to work thoughtfully from within given traditions have done a better job in resisting these general cultural changes, but not necessarily a good job in reaching out to others(via marketing).
I am not against Christian marketing, this has been an important part of keeping a more Bible-centered Christianity alive in the US and I'd guess that the power of the Bible was what helped us attract people who were creative marketers and innovators.
The market metaphor isn't "bad", per se. What is bad is the omission of the fact that markets are a metaphor whose metaphorical status has been forgotten and that "markets" are, in fact, products of institutions, including the sorts of disciplines people undertake in making their critical life choices.
dlw
I don't have a problem with people changing denominations, for me the bottom line are the sorts of disciplines we undertake as Christians, with deliberating on/questioning the meaning of our faith in a tradition being a critical sort of discipline. For me, it's not the choice or market aspects that are the problem, but rather what's not going on.
The turn towards hyper-individualism in the past thirty-plus years in US culture is toxic for our Christianities and it seems that Christians who are intentionally committed to work thoughtfully from within given traditions have done a better job in resisting these general cultural changes, but not necessarily a good job in reaching out to others(via marketing).
I am not against Christian marketing, this has been an important part of keeping a more Bible-centered Christianity alive in the US and I'd guess that the power of the Bible was what helped us attract people who were creative marketers and innovators.
The market metaphor isn't "bad", per se. What is bad is the omission of the fact that markets are a metaphor whose metaphorical status has been forgotten and that "markets" are, in fact, products of institutions, including the sorts of disciplines people undertake in making their critical life choices.
dlw