I think we should not store things up either in our homes or in bank-accounts etc. We should trust God instead. It is not a question of "attitude" or "priorities" (only). As long as we have our riches, we won´t need to trust God. We have to despise riches (Mt 6:24). We should sell what we have and give to the poor, but not necessarily all at the same time.
Jonas Lundström
· 1 year ago
I think we should not store things up either in our homes or in bank-accounts etc. We should trust God instead. It is not a question of "attitude" or "priorities" (only). As long as we have our riches, we won´t need to trust God. We have to despise riches (Mt 6:24). We should sell what we have and give to the poor, but not necessarily all at the same time.
Michael Cline
· 1 year ago
I see so much of this changing with the my generation (I'm 24) compared to the Boomer's (our parents). My wife and I are fiscally responsible and we "store" I suppose to a degree in a savings account, but we live simply so we don't have to worry and ask questions like "have we saved enough?" Money doesn't run our lives. We refuse to make decisions based on an accountant ledger's reading. I think saving up for the future or being financially stable is a good thing, but the definition of what is "stable" and what is "hording" is radically shifting, and I think that is a great thing. Stable does not mean a full IRA account, life insurance on my beautiful right leg, and a growing stock portfolio. When we save and live simply, we can give more, which makes us much more spiritually stable.
Mark Van Steenwyk
· 1 year ago
Just to add some anxiety to this discussion:
Why is saving a bit for the future a good thing? And why do we assume that Jesus' teachings doesn't challenge this notion? I think we're coming at this with a set of assumptions that we need to examine more closely.
Michael Cline
· 1 year ago
I see so much of this changing with the my generation (I'm 24) compared to the Boomer's (our parents). My wife and I are fiscally responsible and we "store" I suppose to a degree in a savings account, but we live simply so we don't have to worry and ask questions like "have we saved enough?" Money doesn't run our lives. We refuse to make decisions based on an accountant ledger's reading. I think saving up for the future or being financially stable is a good thing, but the definition of what is "stable" and what is "hording" is radically shifting, and I think that is a great thing. Stable does not mean a full IRA account, life insurance on my beautiful right leg, and a growing stock portfolio. When we save and live simply, we can give more, which makes us much more spiritually stable.
Mark Van Steenwyk
· 1 year ago
Just to add some anxiety to this discussion:
Why is saving a bit for the future a good thing? And why do we assume that Jesus' teachings doesn't challenge this notion? I think we're coming at this with a set of assumptions that we need to examine more closely.
Nathan
· 1 year ago
Man I hate these hard questions!
It is absolutely undeniable that our (American) view of what is 'necessary' is vastly different from either a good portion of the rest of the world or reality. Simply owning a car, a 'necessity' in most parts of the US, makes one richer than the vast majority of the rest of the world. So too with central air & heat, indoor plumbing (though clean water is absolutely necessary for health - far too many people drink contaminated water) and even a solid roof over our heads. Most of the world survives on less than $2/day - what does the minimally acceptable lifestyle cost here? 20 times that? 50?
I see many parallels between this issue and the issue of nonviolence. In my mind, one of the central tenets of Christian pacifism is a profound trust that God will use my obedience in a positive way. I don't need to defend my life or my good with violence because God will both use that as a witness to the world and take care of me. That may be in this life or the next, but it is action based on trust. If we are willing to sacrifice our very lives to advance the Kingdom, why not our savings accounts? But man that is hard. Its easy to imagine a glorious what-if about dying for God that will likely never happen. Its quite another thing to KNOW that one will be poor for God at some definite point in the future.
Nathan
· 1 year ago
Man I hate these hard questions!
It is absolutely undeniable that our (American) view of what is 'necessary' is vastly different from either a good portion of the rest of the world or reality. Simply owning a car, a 'necessity' in most parts of the US, makes one richer than the vast majority of the rest of the world. So too with central air & heat, indoor plumbing (though clean water is absolutely necessary for health - far too many people drink contaminated water) and even a solid roof over our heads. Most of the world survives on less than $2/day - what does the minimally acceptable lifestyle cost here? 20 times that? 50?
I see many parallels between this issue and the issue of nonviolence. In my mind, one of the central tenets of Christian pacifism is a profound trust that God will use my obedience in a positive way. I don't need to defend my life or my good with violence because God will both use that as a witness to the world and take care of me. That may be in this life or the next, but it is action based on trust. If we are willing to sacrifice our very lives to advance the Kingdom, why not our savings accounts? But man that is hard. Its easy to imagine a glorious what-if about dying for God that will likely never happen. Its quite another thing to KNOW that one will be poor for God at some definite point in the future.
Michael Cline
· 1 year ago
I don't think saving for the future just for the sake of sleeping better at night or for the ability to buy that "next great thing" on the market is a legit Christian act--however--I do think that saving in order to give more to others and to be able to live with a more "open hand" is a kingdom-like attitude. Certainly you can argue that should be able to live this attitude despite your lack of financial savings, and that critique is well-noted. But on top of all of this is the crushing weight of what financial debt can do to a person in today's world. The more I save, the more likely I am to pay off my debt at a faster rate, the more likely I am to live with a spring in my step and my head up looking face to face with others. There are personal and social consequences to saving or not saving in the Kingdom of God.
I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)
Miracle
· 1 year ago
I think it is important to examine what is meant when Jesus asks us to store up gifts in Heaven. Is he asking us to worry about the crowns we receive in the afterlife or is he asking us to worry about the lasting things that will affect his kingdom?
I think it is the latter and therefore influences my opinion.
saving for personal wants is useless because it will fade away, but Jesus wants us to save for family security. He wants our children and spouses to be part of his kingdom, and the best way to do this is to make sure they are safe and secure.
It is about removing all the excess and focus on the important things.
Michael Cline
· 1 year ago
I don't think saving for the future just for the sake of sleeping better at night or for the ability to buy that "next great thing" on the market is a legit Christian act--however--I do think that saving in order to give more to others and to be able to live with a more "open hand" is a kingdom-like attitude. Certainly you can argue that should be able to live this attitude despite your lack of financial savings, and that critique is well-noted. But on top of all of this is the crushing weight of what financial debt can do to a person in today's world. The more I save, the more likely I am to pay off my debt at a faster rate, the more likely I am to live with a spring in my step and my head up looking face to face with others. There are personal and social consequences to saving or not saving in the Kingdom of God.
I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)
Miracle
· 1 year ago
I think it is important to examine what is meant when Jesus asks us to store up gifts in Heaven. Is he asking us to worry about the crowns we receive in the afterlife or is he asking us to worry about the lasting things that will affect his kingdom?
I think it is the latter and therefore influences my opinion.
saving for personal wants is useless because it will fade away, but Jesus wants us to save for family security. He wants our children and spouses to be part of his kingdom, and the best way to do this is to make sure they are safe and secure.
It is about removing all the excess and focus on the important things.
Mike L.
· 1 year ago
I think there is a tendency to try and over personalize Jesus teachings and domesticate what was once a truely revolutionary message.
Ask this question - In their culture, who was it that had the power to "store up treasures"? There were no banks for peasants to accumulate savings. If someone was storing real wealth, then they were primarily land owners. In an agrarian society, Land was the wealth of the day. If you owned land then you had it because the Roman Empire took it from someone else and gave it to you or because you were a Roman sympathizer and cut a deal with the occupying forces to keep your land. Herod for example, or the wealthy Saducees.
I think Jesus is speaking critically to the wealthy Jewish land owners running the city (and the temple) who had cut a sweet deal with the Roman Empire that allows them to remain in power, but neglects the jewish peasants. In his eyes, God had setup the nation of Israel based on principles of peace and justice but now they serve a different master.....Rome.
You can't be a champion for justice while looking out for your own interests. If we want to personalize that message, then to me the answer would be think about more than our own pocket books when we cast votes or when we decide where to invest our money. Jesus isn't asking us not to invest, he is telling us to invest in things that create justice (i.e. "the kingdom")
Mike L.
· 1 year ago
I think there is a tendency to try and over personalize Jesus teachings and domesticate what was once a truely revolutionary message.
Ask this question - In their culture, who was it that had the power to "store up treasures"? There were no banks for peasants to accumulate savings. If someone was storing real wealth, then they were primarily land owners. In an agrarian society, Land was the wealth of the day. If you owned land then you had it because the Roman Empire took it from someone else and gave it to you or because you were a Roman sympathizer and cut a deal with the occupying forces to keep your land. Herod for example, or the wealthy Saducees.
I think Jesus is speaking critically to the wealthy Jewish land owners running the city (and the temple) who had cut a sweet deal with the Roman Empire that allows them to remain in power, but neglects the jewish peasants. In his eyes, God had setup the nation of Israel based on principles of peace and justice but now they serve a different master.....Rome.
You can't be a champion for justice while looking out for your own interests. If we want to personalize that message, then to me the answer would be think about more than our own pocket books when we cast votes or when we decide where to invest our money. Jesus isn't asking us not to invest, he is telling us to invest in things that create justice (i.e. "the kingdom")
Ariah Fine
· 1 year ago
great discussion! I wonder how I'm supposed to handle my finances. It's obvious we should not spend on our selves lavishly, but what do we do with the extra income that we have?
Do we invest it for greater good, or do we give it away now for immediate good? I'm not sure of the right answer. A little of both?
Ariah Fine
· 1 year ago
great discussion! I wonder how I'm supposed to handle my finances. It's obvious we should not spend on our selves lavishly, but what do we do with the extra income that we have?
Do we invest it for greater good, or do we give it away now for immediate good? I'm not sure of the right answer. A little of both?
All Comments
Why is saving a bit for the future a good thing? And why do we assume that Jesus' teachings doesn't challenge this notion? I think we're coming at this with a set of assumptions that we need to examine more closely.
Why is saving a bit for the future a good thing? And why do we assume that Jesus' teachings doesn't challenge this notion? I think we're coming at this with a set of assumptions that we need to examine more closely.
It is absolutely undeniable that our (American) view of what is 'necessary' is vastly different from either a good portion of the rest of the world or reality. Simply owning a car, a 'necessity' in most parts of the US, makes one richer than the vast majority of the rest of the world. So too with central air & heat, indoor plumbing (though clean water is absolutely necessary for health - far too many people drink contaminated water) and even a solid roof over our heads. Most of the world survives on less than $2/day - what does the minimally acceptable lifestyle cost here? 20 times that? 50?
I see many parallels between this issue and the issue of nonviolence. In my mind, one of the central tenets of Christian pacifism is a profound trust that God will use my obedience in a positive way. I don't need to defend my life or my good with violence because God will both use that as a witness to the world and take care of me. That may be in this life or the next, but it is action based on trust. If we are willing to sacrifice our very lives to advance the Kingdom, why not our savings accounts? But man that is hard. Its easy to imagine a glorious what-if about dying for God that will likely never happen. Its quite another thing to KNOW that one will be poor for God at some definite point in the future.
It is absolutely undeniable that our (American) view of what is 'necessary' is vastly different from either a good portion of the rest of the world or reality. Simply owning a car, a 'necessity' in most parts of the US, makes one richer than the vast majority of the rest of the world. So too with central air & heat, indoor plumbing (though clean water is absolutely necessary for health - far too many people drink contaminated water) and even a solid roof over our heads. Most of the world survives on less than $2/day - what does the minimally acceptable lifestyle cost here? 20 times that? 50?
I see many parallels between this issue and the issue of nonviolence. In my mind, one of the central tenets of Christian pacifism is a profound trust that God will use my obedience in a positive way. I don't need to defend my life or my good with violence because God will both use that as a witness to the world and take care of me. That may be in this life or the next, but it is action based on trust. If we are willing to sacrifice our very lives to advance the Kingdom, why not our savings accounts? But man that is hard. Its easy to imagine a glorious what-if about dying for God that will likely never happen. Its quite another thing to KNOW that one will be poor for God at some definite point in the future.
I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)
I think it is the latter and therefore influences my opinion.
saving for personal wants is useless because it will fade away, but Jesus wants us to save for family security. He wants our children and spouses to be part of his kingdom, and the best way to do this is to make sure they are safe and secure.
It is about removing all the excess and focus on the important things.
I suppose I've been a little too influenced (possible?) by John Wesley here. "Earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can...No more sloth.... No more waste.... No more covetousness!" (from "The Use of Money" sermon)
I think it is the latter and therefore influences my opinion.
saving for personal wants is useless because it will fade away, but Jesus wants us to save for family security. He wants our children and spouses to be part of his kingdom, and the best way to do this is to make sure they are safe and secure.
It is about removing all the excess and focus on the important things.
Ask this question - In their culture, who was it that had the power to "store up treasures"? There were no banks for peasants to accumulate savings. If someone was storing real wealth, then they were primarily land owners. In an agrarian society, Land was the wealth of the day. If you owned land then you had it because the Roman Empire took it from someone else and gave it to you or because you were a Roman sympathizer and cut a deal with the occupying forces to keep your land. Herod for example, or the wealthy Saducees.
I think Jesus is speaking critically to the wealthy Jewish land owners running the city (and the temple) who had cut a sweet deal with the Roman Empire that allows them to remain in power, but neglects the jewish peasants. In his eyes, God had setup the nation of Israel based on principles of peace and justice but now they serve a different master.....Rome.
You can't be a champion for justice while looking out for your own interests. If we want to personalize that message, then to me the answer would be think about more than our own pocket books when we cast votes or when we decide where to invest our money. Jesus isn't asking us not to invest, he is telling us to invest in things that create justice (i.e. "the kingdom")
Ask this question - In their culture, who was it that had the power to "store up treasures"? There were no banks for peasants to accumulate savings. If someone was storing real wealth, then they were primarily land owners. In an agrarian society, Land was the wealth of the day. If you owned land then you had it because the Roman Empire took it from someone else and gave it to you or because you were a Roman sympathizer and cut a deal with the occupying forces to keep your land. Herod for example, or the wealthy Saducees.
I think Jesus is speaking critically to the wealthy Jewish land owners running the city (and the temple) who had cut a sweet deal with the Roman Empire that allows them to remain in power, but neglects the jewish peasants. In his eyes, God had setup the nation of Israel based on principles of peace and justice but now they serve a different master.....Rome.
You can't be a champion for justice while looking out for your own interests. If we want to personalize that message, then to me the answer would be think about more than our own pocket books when we cast votes or when we decide where to invest our money. Jesus isn't asking us not to invest, he is telling us to invest in things that create justice (i.e. "the kingdom")
I wonder how I'm supposed to handle my finances. It's obvious we should not spend on our selves lavishly, but what do we do with the extra income that we have?
Do we invest it for greater good, or do we give it away now for immediate good? I'm not sure of the right answer. A little of both?
I wonder how I'm supposed to handle my finances. It's obvious we should not spend on our selves lavishly, but what do we do with the extra income that we have?
Do we invest it for greater good, or do we give it away now for immediate good? I'm not sure of the right answer. A little of both?