I'm familiar with all the descriptions of the kingdom you mention, Joshua. But I can't quite tell if you think the more modern descriptions add something new, or are just a different way of talking about it.
The language of "helping to repair and restore the world" tends to suggest a slow and gradual appearance of the kingdom of God, a "building of the kingdom" in which we are "partners" with God. Is that what you are saying?
I seem to recall that Ellul was a big critic of that more recent interpretation of the coming of the kingdom of God. I know I find it hard to reconcile it with the way scripture talks about God's kingdom and the way Jesus talked about it (and the kingdom seemed to be his favorite topic). If this is what you're saying, where do you get the "gradual building of the kingdom" idea? Or the "partners" idea?
paul munn
· 4 months ago
No interest in this question? Maybe it would help if I was a little more explicit. Here's a piece from a journal entry on this subject, from several years ago, referring to a Methodist belief statement that sounds a lot like Joshua's:
The phrases that stand out (and trouble me) are: "comes slowly," "through the joint efforts of God and man," "in the struggle to create a new and divine order."
They trouble me because they seem to present the kingdom of God as something much less than Jesus preached. They speak of God's kingdom as coming slowly, while Jesus announced:
"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk 1.15)
"If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Mt 12.28)
"The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Lk 17.20-21)
And if they are referring to Jesus' second coming, why say "slowly" when Jesus said "like lightning" (Mt 24.27) and "suddenly like a snare", with "the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk 21.27-35)?
Most importantly to me, Jesus seems to be promising an immediate experience of his kingdom. "The kingdom of God has come upon you." If this is true, then a promise of a kingdom that "comes slowly through the joint efforts of God and man" doesn't sound like very good news in comparison.
I see what you're saying Paul. As another possible perspective, it could be one of those things that just "creep up on you." Like, all the signs are there but you just don't see it until BAM! and it's there.
Or there could be a gradual building up or preparation for the Kingdom of God when, all of the sudden, a cataclysmic event that triggers people to take up the Kingdom of God.
paul munn
· 4 months ago
Yes, I suppose that could describe our experience of it, Jesse. But I'm more interested in the reality of the kingdom that Jesus proclaimed. If it comes slowly to us because we're not paying attention, then that's what we have chosen for ourselves, but it is still immediately available to those who eagerly accept Jesus' invitation.
And my complaint is about a theology (kingdom-ology?) that pushes the kingdom off into the future (as a "dream"), a culmination of centuries of hard work. Which is a great diminishment of Jesus' good news. And also a shift in focus away from God's gift (announced as an immediate gift by Jesus, and ultimately a "new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God," another clear gift from God) towards an emphasis on human accomplishment (through reform, activism?) which happens slowly and gradually. Grace is nudged aside in favor of the amazing things we can accomplish if we work together, patiently, committed, trusting the hopeful motto, "Yes, we can!"
Not Jesus' message at all.
Jesse Evans
· 4 months ago
Woa. Something about the way you put that... Gives a whole new understanding (to me, at least) of "the kingdom of god is within you."
See, I always kinda thought of the kingdom of God as that eventual, inevitable utopia on earth (for all of mankind). Like everyone eventually accepting it, and once EVERYONE accepts it, then it's here. (that's kinda the short version of what I thought) But I see what you're saying.
It's gonna take awhile for that to digest.
Huh.
Thanks for blowing my mind, Paul. I'll be back as soon as I recover.
Zack Allen
· 4 months ago
Yeah, you don't hear that preached much in church, but that is as central to Christianity as it gets. The gospel Jesus preached was the "Gospel of the Kingdom." He proclaimed that "the Kingdom of God is at hand" and announced the Jubilee.
A book that helped me to realize that sharp distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdoms of the World and better understand the nature of the Kingdom of God was Greg Boyd's "The Myth of a Christian Nation."
joshuadbau
· 3 months ago
Sorry it took so long for me to respond, I was unaware that you responded to this text. I do not mean to say that the Kingdom is not here, for it is, and Jesus has already returned, the sort of waiting for Jesus theology that implies an escapist theology where Jesus isn't with the people of God, but Jesus said, wherever two or more are gathered in my name there I am in their midst. So I do think that the Kingdom of God is here, but I'm sure that you have noticed that the world doesn't look a think like Jesus described the Kingdom of God to be, its still a fallen, sinful world. Thus we do partner with God, and it is slow work reclaiming and restoring the world, its been around two thousand years since Jesus came to earth and the work of the Kingdom of God, the building of the firm foundation for the coming age is still continuing. I'm not sure that is a full comment, however, I am in a class session right now and I need to pay attention. LOVE
J
paul munn
· 3 months ago
Hi Joshua. As I wrote in my initial comment, I question the imagery of "building the kingdom," "slow work," and "partnership" to describe the kingdom of God, when Jesus always seemed to speak of it as a gift from God. An immediate gift offered now, or a sudden gift at his return. I quoted some examples in my second comment above.
So I'm wondering where you're drawing concepts like "slow work reclaiming and restoring the world," "building of the firm foundation for the coming age," and "partnership" from. They sound to me more like the language of activists or politicians than the way Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God.
All Comments
The language of "helping to repair and restore the world" tends to suggest a slow and gradual appearance of the kingdom of God, a "building of the kingdom" in which we are "partners" with God. Is that what you are saying?
I seem to recall that Ellul was a big critic of that more recent interpretation of the coming of the kingdom of God. I know I find it hard to reconcile it with the way scripture talks about God's kingdom and the way Jesus talked about it (and the kingdom seemed to be his favorite topic). If this is what you're saying, where do you get the "gradual building of the kingdom" idea? Or the "partners" idea?
The phrases that stand out (and trouble me) are: "comes slowly," "through the joint efforts of God and man," "in the struggle to create a new and divine order."
They trouble me because they seem to present the kingdom of God as something much less than Jesus preached. They speak of God's kingdom as coming slowly, while Jesus announced:
And if they are referring to Jesus' second coming, why say "slowly" when Jesus said "like lightning" (Mt 24.27) and "suddenly like a snare", with "the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Lk 21.27-35)?
Most importantly to me, Jesus seems to be promising an immediate experience of his kingdom. "The kingdom of God has come upon you." If this is true, then a promise of a kingdom that "comes slowly through the joint efforts of God and man" doesn't sound like very good news in comparison.
(For the rest, go here: "building the kingdom"?)
Or there could be a gradual building up or preparation for the Kingdom of God when, all of the sudden, a cataclysmic event that triggers people to take up the Kingdom of God.
And my complaint is about a theology (kingdom-ology?) that pushes the kingdom off into the future (as a "dream"), a culmination of centuries of hard work. Which is a great diminishment of Jesus' good news. And also a shift in focus away from God's gift (announced as an immediate gift by Jesus, and ultimately a "new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God," another clear gift from God) towards an emphasis on human accomplishment (through reform, activism?) which happens slowly and gradually. Grace is nudged aside in favor of the amazing things we can accomplish if we work together, patiently, committed, trusting the hopeful motto, "Yes, we can!"
Not Jesus' message at all.
See, I always kinda thought of the kingdom of God as that eventual, inevitable utopia on earth (for all of mankind). Like everyone eventually accepting it, and once EVERYONE accepts it, then it's here. (that's kinda the short version of what I thought) But I see what you're saying.
It's gonna take awhile for that to digest.
Huh.
Thanks for blowing my mind, Paul. I'll be back as soon as I recover.
A book that helped me to realize that sharp distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdoms of the World and better understand the nature of the Kingdom of God was Greg Boyd's "The Myth of a Christian Nation."
J
So I'm wondering where you're drawing concepts like "slow work reclaiming and restoring the world," "building of the firm foundation for the coming age," and "partnership" from. They sound to me more like the language of activists or politicians than the way Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God.