Jesus Manifesto - Latest Comments in The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

NewGuy — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:46:06 -0000

I think your are spot on with this post. Nicely done.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

NewGuy — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:40:12 -0000

Self-reflection is always important, but don't worry this really is nothing new. From the Beats to the hippies to headbangers, grunge, etc. social trends have always been co-opted. And this pattern has been consistent in Western culture of the modern era. You could go back to the Lost Generation, Jazz age, etc.

A good example is the so-called hippies of the 60's and early 70's. It's been well-documented that they sold out and became yuppies and that's true of the vast majority of those who joined that movement in their youth because it was part of a trend. But if you look around you will still find aging hippies that stayed true to those ideals, they always were part of a minority even when it seemed "everybody" was a hippy.

I'm a product of the little neo-hippy movement of the late 80's and early 90's and I've seen the same thing. I might never have discovered those ideals had it not become "trendy" but unlike so many others, I took certain values to heart and still try to live by them -- I don't wear tie-dyes and have long hair anymore, that's the superficial of that particular trend, but I retain the values of peace, love and sustainability when so many others who appeared equally committed "back in the day" have moved on. But some of us have retained those values to one degree or another.

I may look and smell pretty much like your typical mainstream person, but maybe that just gives me a better opportunity to expose people to my radical ideas without them instantly having their guard up. If I still had long hair or dreads and reeked of patchouli, those same people probably would never get to know me at all.

But if they see someone who seems pretty much like them gardening organically, driving a hybrid, refusing to shop at Wal-Mart, raising beef on only grass instead of grain, etc. maybe they'll give more serious consideration to making small alterations in their own lives. They may not become radicalized, but maybe they'll take some steps in the right direction.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Geoff Holsclaw — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:29:23 -0000

Mark,
great article. very honest.

two things: the first is that I'm not sure the pseudo-alterity issues is so much a social issues (while of course it is) but also an economic issue. See "merchants of cool" by frontline for cool hunters and all that (http://www.youtube.com/watc....

Also, for me the defining thing about hipters and our generation is the ironic distance (or cynical distance) we have toward everything. Hipters are immune to criticism because whenever you expose their superficiality they just say, "Duh, I already knew that."

For me, the hard work of being radical...and the work of discipleship is to get rid of this ironic distance and actually live. Our relationships to others, to God, and even to ourselves are mediated through this distance, through these phrases of disavowal, through little gestures of insecurity, through voice inflections and sarcasms which say "I don't know who I am or what I'm really doing."

I would even venture, because I think I'm doing it myself, that church leadership suffers and congregational worship suffers because of the deep (might I even say 'unconscious') practices of ironic distance.

(an instance of ironic distance would be to conclude this comment with a mild phrase of self-deprecation so that you all didn't think I was some fundy)

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Micheal McEvoy — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 02:15:40 -0000

I agree, but what usually happens is that mainstream co-opts the movement. I knew that hip-hop had been co-opted when I saw a Rice Krispies commercial where Snap, Krackle and Pop did their little song as a hip-hop piece.
I don't think it that we despise what the movement became, so much as we despise what we let happen to it.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

sleepingjellyfish — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:09:20 -0000

I read the adbusters article a few days ago and was really hoping someone was going to chime in on it. thanks mark. So after recently justifying in numerous ways my latest craigslist steal of a Chrome Metropolis bag, and reading the adbusters article, and now this, ive been doing some thinking. I find all stereotypes and identity groups so interesting, and especially growing up in milwaukee in various punk/hardcore/straightedge scenes and now years later seeing it morph, and also experiencing the various scenes in the Twin Cities, I have taken on a specially affection for the "hipster" crowd, particularly because it is so unspecific.

I think we've all identified how the mainstream co-opts counter cultures to neutralize them. we've all expressed our own hipsterisms and geek outs. I think its important for individuals to have a continuum of relationships and time and experiences allotted to those groups. to every kid who had a club house, or their special place by the creek, was shy at family gatherings, or really liked the attention at school or birthday parties, it is evident that they like a variety of groups, both in size and purpose, to be involved in. I know a classic case twin cities hipster. or atleast he looks like it. little do many of his nightime and cafe friends know that he is a elementary school teacher. i dont think that is a very popular profession yet, at least among fixed gear bikers. correct me if im wrong. Another spot on gutter punk friend of mine has been enjoying employment as a nanny for several years. he doesnt talk about work much in bigger crowds.

other things in the same vein, like sarahlynne's "trail of contradicitons", arent really contradictions at all. I mean, we are people. we are really really complex, multifaceted, and operate in 3 dimensions. we change our minds, switch allegiances, and ultimately make mistakes. and thats ok. we all need alone time, time with a best friend, or our secret club that no one else can be in, or a bigger group where the more that come the better the fun.

I liked mark's response and the adbusters article a lot. their criticisms and thoughts i think were right on. I wonder if though this isnt just another conversation about ultra specific class identity crises. But when I think of the 100,000 march on Washington in the 60's or the riots in France, and the millions of high school and university political activists in Latin America, I stop wondering, and start thinking again. They cant all be hipster/artsy/analog/fixed gear/urban/hippie/punk/grunge/alt/liberal arts students, can they? they must have something binding them together past sharp shoes, messy hair, and thick rimmed glasses...

i apologize if this seems incoherent. i think im a coffee glutton.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

destroyideas — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:52:03 -0000

The goal of a social movement is to take it mainstream and change the way the world operates. But then when it starts to grow we despise what it becomes because we're no longer special, we're just a part of the whole.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

hewhocutsdown — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:11:42 -0000

Wow, and the geeks come out of the closet. I had an abortive attempt with Gentoo back in '99, got sucked in a few months later with Mandrake (v7 I think).

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

SarahLynne — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:35:23 -0000

As I was reading this my friend started playing MGMT, who decided to join a huge label because it was so trendy to join an independent label (I think they were aware of the ridiculousness involved in making that decision). Hipsterism at its finest. I thought it was kind of funny it started playing and everyone in the house said "oh I looove MGMT" right when I was reading this post : )

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

MJMcEvoy — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:48:33 -0000

Back in my day, being a child of the late 60's, the Hippies had a funeral in Haight-Ashbury. Hippie was declared dead, because it had become mainstream.
Abby Hoffman eventually committed suicide and Jerry Rubin went on to become a neo-con stockbroker, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... if you don't know who they were.

In the 60's the beats were absorbed, note the popularity of Manard G. Krebs in the TV series Dobbie Gillis.
In the 70' and 80's all the mainstream stores sold tie-died clothes.

Society absorbs, neutralizes, and regurgitates anything that is seen as a threat. By making counter-culture chic, the counter-culture becomes impotent. That was attempted with the Amish and other plain societies, with little effect. So it doesn't always succeed, but we need to remember that we need to stay on the fringe.
J.H. Yoder and others put it rather well - ecclesia semper reformanda.

As a side note, I've run Linux in one form or another since rel 0.9p13.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

hewhocutsdown — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:10:36 -0000

You gotta love the yuppy and the hippy and everyone in between. Peace to you two :)

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

hewhocutsdown — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:09:08 -0000

Intent is exactly where it's at. If your intent is to conform out of fear, or lack of self-esteem, or to convey a message that is not already conveyed by your actions (or to showcase your own ability to 'check the right boxes') it's probably not necessary or beneficial.

Growing up in Kuwait, I grew an attachment to goth/punk culture despite there being no 'scene' of any sort...moving to Australia, I continued in that vein, but I realized that in some situations, the beat-to-hell trenchcoat and throat spikes weren't helping my ability to connect with people. So I dropped the throat spikes, and eventually the coat as well. The mohawk became a shaved head, which became a 'normal' haircut. I did this not in an attempt to 'conform' as much as to allow for better relationships.

I still provoke and press people toward change, but because it's no longer tied to my appearance, I can pick and choose the times and the people I do it with...so that the people willing and able to be stretched, are, without hurting or offending those who cannot handle it.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Ted — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:22:35 -0000

I don't know. What if the hipsters are pissed that Christian "radicals" are copping their style?

Okay, so I couldn't resist that.

This really is a fascinating topic, and when I first read it my reaction was "welcome to the desert of the Real." It would seem that there is nothing, not even anti-capitalist resistance, that capitalism can't co-opt and then market back to you as an identity marker. If global capitalism (neoliberalism) is the new shape of Empire, there is basically no outside. It really is a life-size map of reality. It's like Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is resistant to treatment because anything can become fodder for one's narcissistic drama. If the hipsters have an edge, it's that they get this -- at least the more self-aware ones that SarahLynne mentioned.

All of which is to say that you're right to feel this tension, to sense the ironies, to lament the contradictions. I look forward to the next installment.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Ted — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:49:29 -0000

Brandon, with all due respect, you're not getting it. What you're supposed to do is give away your nice clothes to a homeless shelter or the Salvation Army so some genuinely poor person can look nice while you spend money trying to look poor.

Ouch, I think I bit my tongue, I had it crammed so hard in my cheek there....

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Dustin — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:42:52 -0000

One thing I'm wondering is that if this might have more to do with motivation than actual outcome...at least in some respects. For instance, certain people find beauty and comfort in certain modes of dress, behavior, etc. However, is it entirely their responsibility for the co-option of their lifestyle which occurs by the popular culture? If I were someone who chose to dress in such a way as to challenge cultural norms--i.e., by wearing women's pants (which would be impossible, size wise)--but then that very trait is taken and exploited by the masses, should I be to blame? Should I refrain simply because how I have chosen to express myself has now become "cool"?

In the end, I really just think it comes down to motivation. If one is choosing to behave in such a way because of what others think, then one should refrain. If, however, you find that this type of choice meshes with who you are personally and what you believe, regardless of what outside "benefits" may come, then by all means continue to live as you wish. Too often I think we get too hung up on what others think, which comes through a bit in this article, and we waste a whole lot of time.

Just my two cents.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Jason Winton — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:31:35 -0000

Beautifully put.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

jurisnaturalist — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:07:00 -0000

I was 21 years old at a coffee house with other punk-goth-alterna soon-to-be-hipsters when I realized that everyone around me was trying so hard to be different, trying to stand out, trying to be weird. Weird was the word I clung on to. I realized that some people thought god was everywhere, that god was in the trees, that god was a cosmic force, that they were god, but I believed God was living inside of me, like something out of Alien. I realized I was weirder than all of them, utterly different, changed. Ten years later Haurwas gave me the right word for it: peculiar.
It is when we are trying to fit in to a worldly patter, mainstream, hipster, professional, or whatever that we remake ourselves in man's image rather than God's. We fail to be peculiar. We try so hard to fit in. We regress to junior high.
First, we need to love our Lord, second we need to love His Bride, the Church. Though the other members may grieve us, our responses must be tempered in love.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Jonathan Brink — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:49:12 -0000

I just want to be the best me I can be.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Ted — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:07:22 -0000

I thought drinking Pabst was a form of penance, like wearing a hair shirt.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Joel — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:53:38 -0000

I have ubuntu on my computers, does that make me a hipster? Actually, I doubt that anyone would mistake me for a hipster. First of all, my bike has 21 speeds. Second, I don't own clothing that could be considered cool. My wife tells me that I dress like an old man (but I don't wear my pants above my waist). Third, I don't live the spoiled middle class kid kind of life. I bust my ass every day working as a mechanic. Well, I work as a mechanic for a utility company so I don't really have to work all that hard, but the job is still dirty and sweaty.

On the serious side, while the Adbusters article had some good points, I found it to be shallow and near sighted. These kids that are labeled as hipsters are simply trying to find where they fit in this world just like all the previous generations did. I don't envy them though. Everything is so scrutinized by the media and comercialized now that it is nearly impossible to find a unique identity for one's self.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Mike Cline — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:56:47 -0000

I always found my own fascination with the "hipster"/ "radical" crew a bit odd. I certainly don't look the part. I don't use the cool words or the cool products (which are actually not "cool" right? I don't know, I can't keep up when being not-cool became the cool). In private conversation with Mark, I tended to lament my non-hipster status, wondering how the JM readers would take my picture with my beautiful wife in my pressed and collared button-up. If I met Mark at a local grunge cafe, should I dress down (which for me was jeans and a t-shirt), or will that not even work, and the locals will smell the yuppy from a mile away.

At some point, I just got over it.

Thanks for this look into your heart Mark. We all have a lot of introspection to do, but it will only take us so far. And displaying that heart for others to look at has to be the only way around this "hipsterdom" that we've created.

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

mountainguy — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:41:35 -0000

Good reflection Mark. It is always necessary to question ourselves about the motivations and the things that must be done... and do those things. The people who move only because of the "coolness" will someday realize that doing the good things is usually dificult, rewardless and perhaps not so cool.

Ps: Anyway, it is a lot better being "countercultural" than "coultercultural" (christianity is supposed to be the former, but has been the later for the most of the las 17 centuries).

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

Eric — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:36:42 -0000

Mark, I really appreciated this article. I've wrestled with many of the same thoughts. So often when I have been around the "Christian radicals" or the New Monastics or the people living in "intentional community" I've come away wondering whether I was just finished hanging out with the "cool kids." I almost came to PAPA fest, but I couldn't for various reasons; however, I remember distinctly having a sense of dread before I left- "Is this really going to be different? Or is it just another cool thing to do, which also seems radical?"

Ultimately, for me, it isn't about the hipster or authentic question but about whether the gospel can be lived out by we who make up the dominant group?

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

hewhocutsdown — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:11:48 -0000

We'll let it slide this once...

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

BDRhodes — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:33:39 -0000

Okay, I confess -- I have a computer in my basement with Ubuntu on it. Does that count? :)

Re: The Style of Subversion: An Introduction

hewhocutsdown — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:16:41 -0000

MacBook? Dude, that is like, so crass commercialism. Linux geeks all the way.

...the sad thing is, I'm only half-joking there. Strike that, I'm dead serious.