Brannon Howse's article was your typical John Hagee eschatology crap: God's gonna smite America if we don't politically support Israel. I mean I'm not anti-Israel or anything like that (I'm not really against any country), but I think Russell Kirk (the godfather of conservatism) was right when he said some Neo-Cons think Tel-Aviv is the capital of the United States.
You make a great point. Why would God withhold His judgment during American slavery, but as soon as Obama speaks to Muslims it's the end of the world?
Chris Martin
· 3 months ago
"However, the way in which the United States accumulated its vast wealth could not have been God’s doing. God has nothing to do with genocide, slavery or the oppression of the poor, rather God stands with the least of these and when we stand with them God stands with us...America’s prosperity did not come from God, rather it was taken at the point of a sword, by the barrel of a gun, it was taken by greed, fear, racism and blind hatred"
I have a question: How does the sovereignty of God fit into this view?
This isn't a loaded question, I agree with most of this blog, and disagree with most of the mentioned article, but I do struggle with the understanding of God's soverignty in the midst of suffering (AND prosperity).
Thanks
Zack Allen
· 3 months ago
Perhaps you could rephrase the question, Chris. In what sense do you mean? I think it would also be beneficial to know how YOU see God's sovereignty. Is it meticulous control or something else?
Chris Martin
· 3 months ago
To rephrase: How can God have "nothing to do with genocide" and not have anything to do with the US wealth? 1. He seems to have lots to do with genocide in the Old Testament. 2. He seems to give and take wealth whenever he wants (his plan trumps). I don't know if I buy into this equation: GENOCIDE = GOD'S NOT INVOLVED or WEALTH BY UNHOLY MEANS = GOD'S NOT INVOLVED
I think that God is all-powerful with a determination to carry out His purpose and plan throughout time into eternity. Whether or not that means meticulous control is up for debate.
But back to the original blog post - I would say that God was a part of the Suffering and genocide, though he may not be the cause, he is a part of the result. I would also say that God plays a part in America's prosperity, he gives and takes away to his purposes. Sometime it may not make sense to us, but I trust that my mind wont always get it.
This could go on and on in many different directions...
SarahLynne
· 3 months ago
My understanding of God's sovereignty means that we don't have to despair, not that the benefit we receive is somehow justified. Think about how backwards that is. We use clearly evil means to get exactly what we have, then we feel bad about it, but justify keeping everything and even proclaim ourselves "blessed" because God let us have our wealth. This doesn't look anything like repentance in the gospel and it doesn't sound like anything Jesus said about who we identify as blessed.
The fact that God is sovereign means that I can reject injustice and the fruits of injustice even when the wisdom of "this world" deems it irrational. I can have faith that God is working things out for the good of those who love Him. The question is "what does loving Him look like?" and I think the point of this article, is that loving God looks little like what we have been doing and attempting to twist into a blessing.
mariakirby
· 3 months ago
I suppose the equations come from an understanding of who a holy God is, and that there are evil forces at work in this world. I would agree that God is involved in everything, to work all things out for good, even if we don't understand what good might come of a situation. But just because God is involved in order to work for good, does not make him a perpetrator of evil.
mariakirby
· 3 months ago
I'm a little curious about your question "Why didn’t God judge America then?" My grandfather, a history professor at Spring Arbor College/University told me that after every war prior to WWII there was a revival. People used to have the opinion that war was God's judgment on a nation. This attitude was particularly true for the American Civil War.
While I will concur with you that much of America's prosperity was built on a foundation that took advantage (usually by force) of others and land, that is not the whole story. America used to have a strong work ethic, even among slave holders. We used to value a good character, and many deals were made based on an oral commitment and a handshake. And Americans have a reputation for innovation. Hard work, honesty, trustworthiness, and creativity are godly characteristics that can result in prosperity.
jurisnaturalist
· 3 months ago
1. You are right that Americans should not suppose God has a peculiar blessing or curse reserved for them, especially based on what their government does. God is no respecter of nation - states. He uses them like pawns sometimes, but that way of thinking has entirely married the church to the state. It is superstitious at best. 2. The genocides performed by Europeans, and the enslavements which ensued, represented a redistribution of the existing wealth of the land at that time. The oppressors were made wealthier, the victims were made poorer. This, it must be noted, was a transfer. 3. The prosperity enjoyed by most Americans today can not have derived from what was stolen. A limited and precise quantity was reallocated. Whenever a transfer is enacted by force in modern times we recognize a net loss of wealth, never a gain. If gain were feasible it could also have been achieved without force. We must say that net wealth was diminished as a consequence of the theft. What came next did not depend in any way upon the reallocation of resources by force. It was the creative energies of human minds which were relatively free from government restrictions which invented improved methods of production. It need not have been Europeans who came up with these ideas. If they had not been oppressed the natives or the slaves might just as likely have been the inventors. Indeed, all of us should have been better off had their creative energies likewise been free to invent. They might be the wealthier among us, though social mobility is part of what has encouraged invention, had they not been robbed. My point is that we are not wealthy because we stole from them. We are worse off for it. Our prosperity has been created by positive forces, and ought not to be shunned or a source of shame. What we do with our prosperity is another story. Your story is too simplistic, and requires alteration. The main point if it, however, that worrying about God's position in relation to nation - states is vain, is quite correct. We can arrive at this same conclusion by rejecting the concept of nation states as pagan from the get-go. It is a much easier argument, drives straight at the heart of state-worship idolatry, and does not conflate issues which have no bearing on the argument at hand.
All Comments
You make a great point. Why would God withhold His judgment during American slavery, but as soon as Obama speaks to Muslims it's the end of the world?
I have a question: How does the sovereignty of God fit into this view?
This isn't a loaded question, I agree with most of this blog, and disagree with most of the mentioned article, but I do struggle with the understanding of God's soverignty in the midst of suffering (AND prosperity).
Thanks
GENOCIDE = GOD'S NOT INVOLVED or WEALTH BY UNHOLY MEANS = GOD'S NOT INVOLVED
I think that God is all-powerful with a determination to carry out His purpose and plan throughout time into eternity. Whether or not that means meticulous control is up for debate.
But back to the original blog post - I would say that God was a part of the Suffering and genocide, though he may not be the cause, he is a part of the result. I would also say that God plays a part in America's prosperity, he gives and takes away to his purposes. Sometime it may not make sense to us, but I trust that my mind wont always get it.
This could go on and on in many different directions...
The fact that God is sovereign means that I can reject injustice and the fruits of injustice even when the wisdom of "this world" deems it irrational. I can have faith that God is working things out for the good of those who love Him. The question is "what does loving Him look like?" and I think the point of this article, is that loving God looks little like what we have been doing and attempting to twist into a blessing.
While I will concur with you that much of America's prosperity was built on a foundation that took advantage (usually by force) of others and land, that is not the whole story. America used to have a strong work ethic, even among slave holders. We used to value a good character, and many deals were made based on an oral commitment and a handshake. And Americans have a reputation for innovation. Hard work, honesty, trustworthiness, and creativity are godly characteristics that can result in prosperity.
2. The genocides performed by Europeans, and the enslavements which ensued, represented a redistribution of the existing wealth of the land at that time. The oppressors were made wealthier, the victims were made poorer. This, it must be noted, was a transfer.
3. The prosperity enjoyed by most Americans today can not have derived from what was stolen. A limited and precise quantity was reallocated. Whenever a transfer is enacted by force in modern times we recognize a net loss of wealth, never a gain. If gain were feasible it could also have been achieved without force. We must say that net wealth was diminished as a consequence of the theft.
What came next did not depend in any way upon the reallocation of resources by force. It was the creative energies of human minds which were relatively free from government restrictions which invented improved methods of production. It need not have been Europeans who came up with these ideas. If they had not been oppressed the natives or the slaves might just as likely have been the inventors. Indeed, all of us should have been better off had their creative energies likewise been free to invent. They might be the wealthier among us, though social mobility is part of what has encouraged invention, had they not been robbed.
My point is that we are not wealthy because we stole from them. We are worse off for it. Our prosperity has been created by positive forces, and ought not to be shunned or a source of shame. What we do with our prosperity is another story.
Your story is too simplistic, and requires alteration. The main point if it, however, that worrying about God's position in relation to nation - states is vain, is quite correct. We can arrive at this same conclusion by rejecting the concept of nation states as pagan from the get-go. It is a much easier argument, drives straight at the heart of state-worship idolatry, and does not conflate issues which have no bearing on the argument at hand.